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Getting a 64 back on the road.
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sjbartnik
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sharp64 wrote:
So when I get the new battery can I rig two jumpers to go from the starter directly to the battery? If the battery turns the starter directly that would kill two birds with one stone. It would show the battery is good and that the starter is good. If once in the car it fails to start the car that would narrow it down to the conncections right? I'm all for doing the things you mentioned, but that would be extremely frustrating to do all that and end up with a bad starter. I would like a way to make sure the components are working properly with the correct voltage.


You already know the starter motor works because it will crank the engine over. Your issue is with the solenoid (potentially).

If you must test, rather than rigging up a jumper you can do the screwdriver trick as above but instead of bridging the post from battery to 50, just bridge the two big posts. This will spin the starter motor without engaging the solenoid (starter motor will run, engine will not crank).
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Went thru our 1963 SC 6 volt wiring after being in storage for many years, and got all the lights, wipers, horn, working brighter, faster, louder, by getting out the voltage drops, but could only start it after several hours on the battery charger. Then could start it a few times in less than a day and have to charge it up again. Final step was cleaning starter/solenoid grounds and now can start it up many times over a day or parked after several days without need of the battery charger.

Think the problem is you do not understand that the battery is already connected directly to the starter solenoid.
When you turn the ignition switch to the "Start" position you turn on an electric magnet inside the starter solenoid. This makes the solenoid pull a lever to push the starter gear into the flywheel gear and at the end of the movement to the magnet there are two electrical points that contact inside the starter solenoid and turn on the starter motor which turns the engine over.
So the ignition switch does not carry the electrical load of the starter motor at all.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm trying to understand here. But if I bridge those posts with the battery connected won't the connections still come into play?

I will go through and clean up the connections, I just wanted to make sure the starter or solenoid are ok as well.
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you use a 13 mm open end wrench, you can jump from the battery connection on the starter solenoid to the slip on wire coming from the ignition switch. Which will engage the starter solenoid without all the wiring up to the front and back from the ignition switch. Just make sure the transaxle is in neutral to prevent rolling the VW over you while you are under there...

You can do same across the battery terminal on the starter solenoid and to the other big nut on the solenoid that connects the starter motor. When you do this the starter gear will not engage the FW gear and the starter motor will spin over.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:
Went thru our 1963 SC 6 volt wiring after being in storage for many years, and got all the lights, wipers, horn, working brighter, faster, louder, by getting out the voltage drops, but could only start it after several hours on the battery charger. Then could start it a few times in less than a day and have to charge it up again. Final step was cleaning starter/solenoid grounds and now can start it up many times over a day or parked after several days without need of the battery charger.

Think the problem is you do not understand that the battery is already connected directly to the starter solenoid.
When you turn the ignition switch to the "Start" position you turn on an electric magnet inside the starter solenoid. This makes the solenoid pull a lever to push the starter gear into the flywheel gear and at the end of the movement to the magnet there are two electrical points that contact inside the starter solenoid and turn on the starter motor which turns the engine over.
So the ignition switch does not carry the electrical load of the starter motor at all.


That does help. Thank you.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:
If you use a 13 mm open end wrench, you can jump from the battery connection on the starter solenoid to the slip on wire coming from the ignition switch. Which will engage the starter solenoid without all the wiring up to the front and back from the ignition switch. Just make sure the transaxle is in neutral to prevent rolling the VW over you while you are under there...

You can do same across the battery terminal on the starter solenoid and to the other big nut on the solenoid that connects the starter motor. When you do this the starter gear will not engage the FW gear and the starter motor will spin over.


Ok. Now I'm a bit lost. Isn't this doing the same thing as using the rubber handled screwdriver that creates sparks?
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Eric&Barb
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No problem! Your FLAPS should be able to load test your starter for free. Just make sure to not test the starter without a bushing support to the rear shaft of the starter or risk having the armature inside the starter rub against the inside of the starter field coils with possible shorting out and frying the electrical wiring inside.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sharp64 wrote:

Ok. Now I'm a bit lost. Isn't this doing the same thing as using the rubber handled screwdriver that creates sparks?


Exactly, we just use a open end wrench because there should be plastic insulating humps between these three connections which the wrench easily gets around.

No need for rubber insulating handle. Just do not let either screwdriver or wrench touch a ground or tool will heat up real quickly.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is an image showing the starter connections. Top is where the ignition switch sends voltage to the solenoid.
The two nuts just below are, left directly from the battery, right to the starter motor itself. Note plastic insulating hump between these last two.

Lowest terminal is later model VW connection.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sharp64 wrote:

Ok. Now I'm a bit lost. Isn't this doing the same thing as using the rubber handled screwdriver that creates sparks?


Yes. Wrench will make a spark show too as you make the connection. Very Happy
Not a big deal, I only mention it so you are aware and not surprised by it
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even when you do short with screwdriver or wrench and get no solenoid or starter action, the solenoid/starter still could be good.
One or more items or connections could be bad is the battery positive cable, starter grounding to the transaxle, transaxle to the body ground, or battery ground cable.
If you get the solenoid to click but no starter motor spin in very rare instances the solenoid points inside might be corroded or burnt out. Repair or replacement of solenoid will fix that. More often the solenoid is not getting a good enough electrical connection.
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Last edited by Eric&Barb on Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:44 am; edited 2 times in total
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sjbartnik
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric&Barb wrote:


Think the problem is you do not understand that the battery is already connected directly to the starter solenoid.
When you turn the ignition switch to the "Start" position you turn on an electric magnet inside the starter solenoid. This makes the solenoid pull a lever to push the starter gear into the flywheel gear and at the end of the movement to the magnet there are two electrical points that contact inside the starter solenoid and turn on the starter motor which turns the engine over.
So the ignition switch does not carry the electrical load of the starter motor at all.


Yes, the solenoid is basically a big heavy-duty relay.

So remember yesterday when we were talking about the brake light switch and how all it does internally is bridge those two contacts (same as you taking the two wires off and touching them together)?

Well consider the solenoid is doing the same thing internally except it's bridging those two big posts on the solenoid. One is connected to the battery directly (there is a big fat wire that goes from the battery right to that post, check it out) and the other has a big braided cable that goes right into the starter motor. So when the solenoid activates it bridges those two contacts inside and power goes direct from battery to starter motor - the car's other wiring is not involved and as Eric&Barb said the ignition switch does not carry the electrical load of the starter - only the electrical load of activating the solenoid.

EDIT: When you use the wrench or screwdriver to connect 30 (the big post with the wire from battery on it) to 50, you are bypassing all the wiring in car from battery to VR to headlight switch to ignition switch and back and instead supplying power direct from battery to solenoid via a big fat pipe. That usually gets it to kick unless the solenoid is totally shot.
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Last edited by sjbartnik on Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is an image of the insides of the starter solenoid. Copper bar on the left contacts the two copper points on right of image. Sending electrical flow to the starter motor.

To take apart solenoid like this one just un-solders the two copper wires shown on the left where they are connected at front side of the solenoid.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright. I have my work cut out for me tomorrow it looks like. I need dielectric grease and 800 grit sand paper to clean the terminals?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

800 grit will work, but take longer and load up quicker. Somewhere around 200 grit will work faster, not load up as quick and still be smooth enough result.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool. Just didn't want to take too much off. Also saw some stuff online called deoxit for connectors. May grab some as well and have a terminal cleaning party! Woot! Lol.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, just polish by hand, and not with power tools.....
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sharp64 wrote:
Cool. Just didn't want to take too much off. Also saw some stuff online called deoxit for connectors. May grab some as well and have a terminal cleaning party! Woot! Lol.


DeOxit is great stuff. I pulled my fuse box out and hosed it down with that stuff Very Happy
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep. New battery did absolutely nothing. Not even a single turnover. No real time to do much else today due to having to run errands all afternoon.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sharp64 wrote:
Yep. New battery did absolutely nothing. Not even a single turnover. No real time to do much else today due to having to run errands all afternoon.


Welp. You know what you gotta do. De-oxidization party tomorrow!
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