Rotates but does not start

JonzoDGreat · Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:58 pm Post subject: Rotates but does not start

My car broke down on me about a week ago, (Dead Battery) The car's charging system failed and it was not charging my battery, tested the generator and it was putting out 30 to 50volts, tested the voltage regulator, it worked fine, I guess it was just a loose wire, so I cleaned up all the connectors. Charging system fixed...

It rained...

That is when a new problem happened a few days later, after fixing the interior dome light, The car had problems starting, it finally started, ran for about 15 minutes, but after I shut the engine off. I tried turning it back on to see if it would give me problems in the future, and it wouldn't start again.

I don't know if the rain had anything to do with it not starting, my carburetor at the time did not have a cover on it and I had the non vented deck lid closed, but I'm not sure if any rain water went down my carburetor, and if this can cause it to not start, like i said before it rained, it took me a long time to start, I ran it for about 15 mins and then it did not want to start again.

The car was doing fine, starting every morning, (Daily Driver)

I have 12volts going to the coil, but I am not getting a spark at the coil.(Tested using a screwdriver and ground at the coil wire going to the distributor.)

I purchased a new Ignition coil.

I got fuel in the fuel filter and I have sprayed starting fluid down the carburetor so I know it is not a fuel related problem.

I re-timed the ignition because I did mess with it about a month ago. I used the static timing method with the test-light.

Ive used my test-light at the negative side of the ignition coil and a good ground source and rotated my engine manually the points appear to be opening and closing.

but why no spark at the ignition coil???

I also checked the gaps on my spark-plugs and cleaned them up with a little bit of sand paper. I also primed the plugs with a little bit of fuel but still no start.

Cusser · Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:58 pm Post subject:

Check points and condenser.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297

ashman40 · Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:30 am Post subject:

Not clear.... has it started at any time since it rained? If so, you may be able to ignore the rain as an issue. Normally moisture will only have a noticeable effect on the ignition. Thoroughly dry the distributor cap and wires (inside & out). WD40 works good to displace water from the electrical contacts.

JonzoDGreat · Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:38 pm Post subject:

Brand new points and a condenser, gapped the points at 0.016, still no spark at the coil, even tried a good spark plug wire.

I never tried testing the coil, I'll try that tomorrow.

Ashman what does ht stand for? I know you are talking about the main distributor wire..

Another thing when I test my coil at terminals 1(-) and 15(+) with a check light I only get power when the points are only either open or closed, I forgot which one. When I rotate the engine manually and the light turns off an then on. Is this normal or should I be getting 12volts all the time at the coil.

What also is weird is when I don't get twelve volts at the two main terminals of the coil, I hook up the test light to the negative side of the coil and use the probe at ground the test light turns on, exactly like to check if the points are opening and closing.

David_nc_72std · Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:44 am Post subject:

JonzoDGreat · Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:02 am Post subject:

Thanks David in regards that the voltage travels from the coil to ground when the points are closed and voltage is present and the negative side of the coil when the points are open.

And the battery is good I am manually charging it.

JonzoDGreat · Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:53 pm Post subject:

Checked the new coil, I supplied the 12 volts to the positive terminal 15 on the coil, and I hooked up a jumper wire directly connected to the ground for the tail light (a known good ground). And the other side I hook up to the negative side of the coil.

No spark when I used three good spark plug wires and ground.

I used my multimeter switched it to volts dc and placed on on the wire I had plugged to the tail light ground that is mounted on the body, and the other one I placed on the wire that goes to the positive side of the coil. 12 volts present.

When and got another coil(coil #3)

Tested the same way as coil 2 and original.
Still no spark at the ignition:(

What am I over looking???

12volts supplied on positive, good ground, spark plug wire 1/4 inches away from ground, still no spark.

David_nc_72std · Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 2:03 pm Post subject:

When you are testing a coil with a grounded wire, you want to ground the wire for a second or two, then watch for a spark (on the spark plug wire) as you lift the wire off the ground. The coil should spark the instant the ground is removed. It will not spark continuously, or when the wire is first connected to ground - only in the instant that the wire is removed from ground.

When the wire is grounded, there is current flowing through the coil, which creates a magnetic field inside the coil. Its the collapse of that magnetic field when the current stops flowing that generates the high voltage needed to spark across the spark plug.

Cusser · Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 2:10 pm Post subject:

ashman40 · Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:40 pm Post subject:

ashman40 · Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:49 pm Post subject:

JonzoDGreat · Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2015 8:39 pm Post subject:

Ok, I tested the coil like David said...
I am getting a spark from the coil when I take off the ground jumper wire at terminal 1(-) off the coil and the voltage jumps to ground through the distributer/Coil spark plug wire.

The only thing is my spark jump at the center of my coil looks and appears weaker than the spark I get when if tap the negative side of the coil with the jumper wire.

I also tested my old coil(1st) and it appears to work the same as my new(3rd) coil, but if anything it is faintly brighter.

David_nc_72std · Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:39 am Post subject:

To start with, just want to verify that when you tried the starter fluid, you didn't get the engine to run at all, not even for a second.

Second, have you tried replacing the spark plugs? I know you said you checked the gap and cleaned them up a bit, but have you tried a new set?
If you haven't changed the plugs, what does the center electrode look like? Light colored, or very dark/black and covered with carbon or oily deposits?

Third, have a look at the distributor cap & rotor. The distributor cap has a spring-loaded contact on the center electrode that pushes down onto the rotor, that can be worn out or even entirely missing if it has fallen out (its not suppose to come out, but it can happen).

Its hard to believe that all the plug wires would go bad at one time, but the coil to distributor cap wire could be bad, that would effect all the cylinders.

Something else - when you crank the engine, does it sound like its cranking about as fast as it normally does, or does it seem to be turning faster or slower than normal?

ashman40 · Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:28 am Post subject:

Work your way out from the coil.
Since your coil works (jumper test), now confirm your points are working. Reconnect the green points wire and rotate the crank until the points are closed and then rotate the crank until the points OPEN and watch for the spark. Re-test with the condenser disconnected from the distributor body (don't let it touch anything) and you should see a noticeable difference in spark (smaller/weaker w/o the condenser connected).

After you have a strong spark from the coil wire, reconnect to the distributor cap and check w/ plug wire the rotor is pointing towards. Remove the spark plug end and insert an wire into the recessed conductor so you can hold the end of the plug wire to a ground. Retest and you should still see a spark jump to ground.

Test with a new spark plug inserted into the end of the plug wire. Ground the metal body of the spark plug (use battery jumper cables). Re-run the test and you should see a spark jump the gap of the spark plug. Re-test with the actual spark plug from the cylinder. There should be no noticeable difference in the spark. If there is, you need to replace the old spark plugs.
Repeat the test by rotating the crank 180-deg and move to the next cylinder/spark plug. This will test all four sets of plugs and wires.
When you are done, keep the last spark plug connected and now get someone to crank the engine while you watch the spark plug. You should see a spark each time the rotor comes around the distributor. This tests that there is sufficient voltage at the coil WHILE the engine is cranking to generate a spark.

If all of this tests okay... start looking at the fuel delivery or compression. Have you confirmed all four cylinders actually generate compression? This is something you can do while the plugs are out. Even placing your finger over the open spark plug hole will tell you if there is some compression being built.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad

}
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}

Cusser · Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:12 pm Post subject:

Make sure that the distributor rotor actually turns when the engine turns too.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297

JonzoDGreat · Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:47 pm Post subject:

JonzoDGreat · Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 7:53 am Post subject:

I used an in-line spark plug tester, and it shows all the plugs are firing, even with my older spark plug wires.

Where to go now, it could be a fuel delivery problem, timing, or valve adjustment, or maybe my compression is bad.

I poured gas in the tank, and a good amount of starting fluid down the carb, no start, I then poured gas down the carb, and no start what so ever.

What would most likely be the problem a daily driver could have, that one day it just does not want to start?

ashman40 · Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:54 am Post subject:

JonzoDGreat · Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:22 pm Post subject:

I adjusted all the valves to (.006).

I tried starting it for about 5 minutes, cranking the engine. It finally started for about 2 seconds and quickly shut off. It took about another 3 mins to get it to start again I ran it for about five mins and when I shut it off it. It again took forever to turn back on(another 4mins). While on it was backfiring avery so often about every 3 mins a little backfire will occur. The engine takes along time to start and does not start back up right away.

Chochobeef · Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2015 7:42 pm Post subject:

Sounds like a timing issue. Could be way too advanced on your timing. Do you have a timing light? If not, I would see about renting one and go from there.


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