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Let me "WHINE"
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Syncro Jael
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:39 pm    Post subject: Let me "WHINE" Reply with quote

22 months ago I installed my rebuilt AA Syncro transaxle. Aluminum bell housing, aluminum gear carrier, oiling plates, bearing retainer plate, decoupler, new main shaft, stainless steel locker pin. Those of you who under$stand what this co$t. $yncro owner$hip. My tranny cost me just over $0.20 cents per mile to operate. Cool

I changed the gear oil at 800 miles, 6,000 miles, 20,000 miles, and now at 32,000 miles. Swarf on the magnet has been minimal.

I have alway been running deep lug tires that made a lot of road noise. Just a couple weeks ago I put on a new set of Toyo AT2 tires. Very quiet. Now I can hear all sorts of things. Shocked

After the tire change have noticed that there is a "whine" when accelerating in 3rd and 4th gears. Coasting or decelerating it is not audible. Clutch depressed, no sound. Only when accelerating and very audible in 3rd and 4th gears. The sound does not change with engine speed. Sad From experience, WHINE = GEAR ISSUE. Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Who knows how long there has been this noise. It has not shown signs of running any hotter temps. It has always been running under 80º over ambient temps and I have only seen it at 170º once and it was stopped and allowed to cool down. Usually it is always under 160º even in the summer.

I spoke with Matt at AA Trans and sent him the pics of the magnet at each oil change. He suggested that I check wheel bearings, cv joints before I pull the transaxle. I also did the coasting side to side turning to see if I could hear a wheel bearing grind. All is quiet. I am getting a scope and dropping the new Mobil Delvac gear oil I just installed last week to take a look at the ring and pinion. I am also going to scope 4th gear.

I run an EJ22 with 215/75/15 tires. And I baby this transaxle. It does see it's share of mountain passes in 3rd gear and off road driving. But the EJ22 is not a powerhouse, like many others own, that seem to have R/P issues early on.

Tomorrow I will drop the oil and scope the box. Wish me luck. I will share the next magnet swarf photo because we just got back from Moab last weekend and put another 400 miles on the whiney box.

Any other thoughts from the group?

Here are my magnet swarf pics. The last photo is from was last week.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

32,000 miles

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Gnarlodious Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had MR GAS in Colorado Springs rebuild mine and recently now that its colder I got to close the windows and guess what I hear? A periodic rumble on the freeway, only in 5ᵀᴴ gear, and louder when climbing a hill. RAWR… RAWR… RAWR…

MR GAS explains that the culprit is Weddle’s gear upgrades which are teeth of a coarser cut. The noise is coming from these parts I am now running:
https://weddleindustries.com/product/1004938 WC-073I 091/094 .73 IDLER, 40MM BORE (PROFILE GROUND)
https://weddleindustries.com/product/1004939 WD-073S-4 094 .73 4TH SPLINED (PROFILE GROUND)

That makes sense since my 4ᵀᴴ is the original VW gears of finer cut teeth and makes no noise. Just eyeballing the gears that came out of the transmission, the Weddle gears are definitely coarser teeth. The noise is not severe, just a mild irritation. Still, its a little disappointing that Weddle would sell such gears for highway driving. Maybe they were made for racers who want strong gears but don’t care about running noise. But rolling down the super slab I can hear it loud and clear.

So if you had Weddle’s gear upgrade installed, rest assured the gears are stronger. But they are also noisier.
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ScottShelley
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ron,

I knew it was a bad idea to change those tires! Seriously, I am very curious as I have almost exactly the same build.
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tjet Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gnarlodious wrote:
I had MR GAS in Colorado Springs rebuild mine and recently now that its colder I got to close the windows and guess what I hear? A periodic rumble on the freeway, only in 5ᵀᴴ gear, and louder when climbing a hill. RAWR… RAWR… RAWR…

MR GAS explains that the culprit is Weddle’s gear upgrades which are teeth of a coarser cut. The noise is coming from these parts I am now running:
https://weddleindustries.com/product/1004938 WC-073I 091/094 .73 IDLER, 40MM BORE (PROFILE GROUND)
https://weddleindustries.com/product/1004939 WD-073S-4 094 .73 4TH SPLINED (PROFILE GROUND)

...transmission, the Weddle gears are definitely coarser teeth. The noise is not severe, just a mild irritation..


What do you mean by coarser, like larger & fewer teeth?

I thought the angle of the gears caused more noise
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IdahoDoug
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm also wondering about the MR GAS explanation of the noise. To me, a cycling sound like you describe (rowr, rowr) is not gear noise. Gear noise tends to be a steady sound. A whine, a whirr, whatever - but not a cycling sound like that. I associate that type of sound with tires, generally. Or some body/drivetrain/exhaust sympathetic resonance. It can sound like a twin engined boat or airplane off in the distance does when the engines are slightly out of sync. A definite rowr, rowr, rowr.

As for the coarse question TJ asks - that is mine as well. I will check out the links after posting this, but when a gear is made to replace another, it must match up as to face angle, tooth pitch, etc and there is precious little room to make the new gear's teeth thicker or coarser. The only other thing I can think of they meant was a coarser surface finish, which again makes little sense for something designed to run under pressure against another gear.

I'm not convinced.
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Gnarlodious Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tjet wrote:
What do you mean by coarser, like larger & fewer teeth?

I thought the angle of the gears caused more noise

Yes, larger and fewer teeth. I don’t have a side-by-side picture of the new and old gears, but MR GAS told me the gears were coarser and the ones pictured on Weddle do definitely look coarser than the old gears. The same shaft also holds the 4ᵀᴴ gear, so if a bearing on the shaft was making noise I would think it would also happen in 4ᵀᴴ.

As a disclaimer, it should be said that this is only a theory. I have no proof the coarser gears are causing the noise I am hearing while cruising. I should also add that I have 4 quarts of Valvoline 75-90w synthetic in my 5-speed, so it is not low on oil.
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:23 am    Post subject: non rebuilt transmission Reply with quote

How is the Syncro locker I sold you doing?

How many more miles have you put on it since installing?

Maybe some pics of the drain magnet from that trans would be a nice comparison.
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:31 am    Post subject: fluid for expensive $yncro transmission rebuilds Reply with quote

Why have you not used Swepco fluid?

Just curious.
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dobryan
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On my previous tranny I had Daryl add taller 3rd and 4th (from Weddle apparently). Daryl said it was not unusual to have those taller gears whine, and they did....

3rd finally gave up the ghost after 50,000 miles apparently due to some bad metallurgy from several years ago, according to Matt when he rebuilt it. My tranny is now back to stock gearing and is totally quiet in all gears.

Not sure if any of that is helpful.....
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ScottShelley
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my conversations with Ron I am pretty sure he has stock gearing. I don't think Weddle gears are part of this conversation. Knowing Ron, I'm sure he will get to the bottom of it.
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insyncro
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Race cut gears make noise, lots of it.
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Gnarlodious Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MR GAS was kind enough to send me some photos of the new Weddle gears versus the original VW gears side by side (Weddle .82 and stock .86):

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I’m not sure this is what’s causing my noise but its a good enough explanation for me. To be fair its not a loud noise, I didn’t even notice it until I closed all the windows.

I’d appreciate more opinions on this.
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Syncro Jael
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:39 pm    Post subject: Re: fluid for expensive $yncro transmission rebuilds Reply with quote

insyncro wrote:
Why have you not used Swepco fluid?

Just curious.


Dylan, Daryl at AA suggested that I remove the Swepco 201 and run Mobil Delvac with my application, EJ22. I believe Matt has been running Delvac also.

The other tranny, from you, is still running great in my sons Syncro. He is about due for a gear oil change and magnet check. Wink
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe borrow some "street" wheels from another vanagon owner and listen again?
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gears
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The stock 3rd & 4th are "low loss" small-toothed gears. These are quieter than early 002, which had larger teeth. Aftermarket gears have even larger, coarser teeth, less helix angle, and cruder tooth form. They are typically noisy (unless the helix is increased to quiet them down).
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snwbrdr435
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Intake noise? What are you running on your ej22?
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2015 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gears wrote:
The stock 3rd & 4th are "low loss" small-toothed gears. These are quieter than early 002, which had larger teeth. Aftermarket gears have even larger, coarser teeth, less helix angle, and cruder tooth form. They are typically noisy (unless the helix is increased to quiet them down).


Weddle sells 2 types of 3rd/4th gear sets. Hobbed (old) and Profile Ground (new). "New" costs 23% more than "old".

It looks like they offer both new and old styles. Are there any noise conclusions to be made between "Hobbed" and "Profile Ground"?
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
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Syncro Jael
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I came home from lunch and dropped my gear oil and take a look at the magnet.

This is since my last gear oil change of 10 days ago and 562 miles.
I was relieved to not see a gob of swarf on the magnet. I feel better my tranny isn't coming apart with the "whine" sound. I will be sending these pics to Matt at AA for his review and after work tonight I will scope the transaxle once all the gear oil has drained out.

Wish me luck! Cool

Here are the pics of the magnet.

Edit: Along with the largest swarf pieces that I found from the last (2)two gear oil changes. The rest of the swarf cannot be felt between the fingers. Shocked

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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tjet Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:50 pm    Post subject: Re: fluid for expensive $yncro transmission rebuilds Reply with quote

Syncro Jael wrote:
insyncro wrote:
Why have you not used Swepco fluid?

Just curious.


Dylan, Daryl at AA suggested that I remove the Swepco 201 and run Mobil Delvac with my application, EJ22. I believe Matt has been running Delvac also.
...


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So the mag plug fuzz above & those 2 slivers was when you had the Swepco in it, or the Delvac?

Does Swepco 201 have an EP additive?
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gears
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
.. Are there any noise conclusions to be made between "Hobbed" and "Profile Ground"?


In theory the ground gears should be quieter.
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