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CMC Bugatti kit build on '73 SB pan.
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Richard/SIA
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:57 pm    Post subject: CMC Bugatti kit build on '73 SB pan. Reply with quote

Got a '73 Super Beetle donor CHEAP!
Has a Title, set of eight spoke wheels and a 1600 DP engine that will have to be rebuilt.
Putting a CMC '35 Bugatti kit on the pan.

This creates an issue for the front suspension as CMC intended the kit to use a beam type front.
There are expensive conversion kits available, costing more than just buying an earlier IRS rear, beam front axle type pan.
Problem is that it seems few such pans come with clean title at a reasonable price.
I think I can find a junk beam axle pan and cut the strut front off mine, then weld a beam type front on?
Seems like a lot of work just to preserve having a title and not improve the front suspension.

I'm wondering about modifying the strut suspension to work.
The lower edge of the pan has to be reinforced anyway once the rusted Bug body is removed.
Why not add a hoop for upper support to each side and a cross-brace side to side with slotted strut mounts for camber adjustment?
The finished car will be VERY light so the load is not an issue.

Seems it might even be possible to convert to a shorter strut?
Surprisingly I found no discussion of anything like this concept on the forum.
Those who break new ground often go broke, so what am I missing here?

My kit is very complete, unusual for CMC!
But I do not have the build manual, as cursory as it would have been a scan of copy would still be useful.
I am also missing the chassis reinforcement rails as the previous owner had some wild idea of putting the kit on a Ford Model A frame. Rolling Eyes
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jspbtown
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:59 pm    Post subject: Re: CMC Bugatti kit build on '73 SB pan. Reply with quote

I believe that simply welding on a new front frame member and using a front beam would be far cheaper than any kind of radical creation you are considering.
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andk5591
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:10 pm    Post subject: Re: CMC Bugatti kit build on '73 SB pan. Reply with quote

jspbtown wrote:
I believe that simply welding on a new front frame member and using a front beam would be far cheaper than any kind of radical creation you are considering.


I agree. . I had gone through this exercise when I was kicking around a project using a Super pan. There is a kit out there, but just cutting of the front and welding a beam front on is not that hard. Will be a lot easier than trying to engineer something that will work with struts, Plus your struts will look like shit

But why dont you look around for a beam pan with title. There are plenty of abandoned projects out there. Or find a beam pan and swap your vins if it doesnt have a title ....I didnt tell you that by the way and PLEASE dont let this get into a debate on legality, morals, etc. The horse has already been beaten to death. Just throwing out various options.
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Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
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Richard/SIA
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:18 pm    Post subject: Re: CMC Bugatti kit build on '73 SB pan. Reply with quote

Around here a decent Beam/IRS pan with title runs $500.00+

Got an entire titled '73 SB with EMPI wheels and seized 1600 DP engine for about $260.00 including the gas to go get it.

Still researching suspension mods.
Seems like it might be practical if I can work out a much shorter strut.
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andk5591
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: CMC Bugatti kit build on '73 SB pan. Reply with quote

The $500 pan with title is a no-brainer to me. Doing something like bolting on a solid front axle (Volksrod kind of thing) is way different than a strut suspension. You really should think about that as an option.

Thinking while typing - so bear with me.

For the struts. you have to provide a very solid and adjustable upper mounting point. Even with a shorter strut, this is going to be a bit of work because of all the different planes that need strong support.

If you can engineer and fabricate that, then you will be good. The struts will be kind of ugly, BUT the more I think about this, a ball joint beam typically looks out of place on an early kit car........Ya know, you may be on to something.

If you proceed with your potential plan - I challenge you to post what the final outcome was in 6 months.....Curious if you pulled it off.

Once again - I had worked through this a while ago for a very similar scenario and the simplest, and safest was to graft a ball joint front section to the super pan. Unfortunately around here, donor pans with a title are not readily available nor cheap, so I went with another plan. Let me put it this way, I have a very rare swing axle "Super"... Laughing
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Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
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jspbtown
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:38 am    Post subject: Re: CMC Bugatti kit build on '73 SB pan. Reply with quote

You will spend WAY more time and money on something you are dreaming about versus just replacing the framehead.
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Richard/SIA
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:36 pm    Post subject: Re: CMC Bugatti kit build on '73 SB pan. Reply with quote

You guys are not making this a challenge?

I actually think I have most of it figured out.
Dump the stock sway-bar/tailing arms setup.
Go to actual adjustable trailing arms with correct pivot points.
Redo the sway bar with rod end links so that it will not bind the lower arms.
Create a new upper strut mount using a shorter strut, try to make it short enough to hide behind the wheel.
See about converting to R&P while I'm at it.

Since I an not restrained by having to keep the Bug body a set of upper braces should not be that hard.
Have to get the Bug body off for a clearer look.
Also need to cruise the salvage yard to look at possible strut conversion pieces.
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Letterman7
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:10 pm    Post subject: Re: CMC Bugatti kit build on '73 SB pan. Reply with quote

But it's also highly possible the Bugatti kit will not fit a strut front end, either. Remember, 99% of the vintage kits required a standard pan, not a super, for a reason - those struts, as well as the front end being shaped very differently. Unless you're doing it to do it for yourself as a proof of concept, I think you'll be throwing a lot of time and potentially money at it for little advantage.
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Q-Dog
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:22 pm    Post subject: Re: CMC Bugatti kit build on '73 SB pan. Reply with quote

On the VW based Bugatti kit, is the front suspension out ahead of the front grill? I don't see how struts would work up front.

On the other hand, if you are going through the trouble of building a new front end, why not build something that looks more like a real Bugatti? A Model T straight axle might look more authentic than a VW front beam suspension, and all the parts are easily available from lots of vendors.
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Richard/SIA
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:55 pm    Post subject: Re: CMC Bugatti kit build on '73 SB pan. Reply with quote

Need to find some one to take away the Bug body for parts.
Need the space and access to begin the experiment.
With the SB body off I ca set the Bugatti body in place temporarily.
Then have a look at how the suspension looks.
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andk5591
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:28 am    Post subject: Re: CMC Bugatti kit build on '73 SB pan. Reply with quote

Q-Dog wrote:
On the VW based Bugatti kit, is the front suspension out ahead of the front grill? I don't see how struts would work up front.

On the other hand, if you are going through the trouble of building a new front end, why not build something that looks more like a real Bugatti? A Model T straight axle might look more authentic than a VW front beam suspension, and all the parts are easily available from lots of vendors.


Yeah - agreed - the more I thought about this, a straight axle would be more correct and would look a LOT better on the car.
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them...
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Richard/SIA
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:27 am    Post subject: Re: CMC Bugatti kit build on '73 SB pan. Reply with quote

Sold the complete body off the pan for $75.00 to a guy who needs the front fenders.
He will take it off too!

So one less chore for me, and I will be able to get a real look at the body/suspension issue next week. Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:33 am    Post subject: Re: CMC Bugatti kit build on '73 SB pan. Reply with quote

Before it goes and if you are still wanting to use the super front end, you better take a lot of measurements......If it were me, I would take a sawzall to the front clip and keep it for a while.... You do realize that the front end will just be flopping in the wind after you pull the body, right?
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D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them...
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Richard/SIA
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:00 am    Post subject: Re: CMC Bugatti kit build on '73 SB pan. Reply with quote

Yes I know it will lose the upper tower that supports the struts.
May weld up a temporary support so that I can roll it around.
If not I have a cart to put under it.
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74Ghia
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:51 pm    Post subject: Re: CMC Bugatti kit build on '73 SB pan. Reply with quote

Have you checked the TD Replica site at tdreplica.com ? The have a downloadable manual tab on the left with different kits including the CMC kit. Albeit an MGTD, the super B frame head mod should be the same. Just another source of info. I know because I have a CMC MGTD kit.
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Wolfgangdieter
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:34 pm    Post subject: Re: CMC Bugatti kit build on '73 SB pan. Reply with quote

Is that CMC like in the Miami FL based Classic Motor Carriages which produced the popular Porsche Speedster, MGTD, Gazelle SKS100? They also had the Tiffany, 34 Ford and short lived Cobra BUT I don't recall them doing a Bugatti replica. I can find build manuals online for all CMC's other models - save the Porsche 359/959.

As another pointed out - the front suspension on the Bugatti is exposed and out in the open. Struts are going to be ugly and hard to support. Here another Samba thread looking for a manual and photo of front using std bug beam.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6915736
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slalombuggy
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:01 pm    Post subject: Re: CMC Bugatti kit build on '73 SB pan. Reply with quote

Your upper strut mounts will determine both your camber and caster on your front alignment so proper placement is critical. You just can't mount them straight up and down. The tops are offset at precise angles.

You Also have to take into account how much suspension travel you will have with super short struts. A front end with 2" of suspension travel will ride like shite.

Swap your frame head and put in a beam put in a solid front end like suggested above. A strut front end will look like crap in an old car and unless you get all your angles correct it will be an ill handling piece of poop.

brad
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HeidelbergJohn4.0
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:33 am    Post subject: Re: CMC Bugatti kit build on '73 SB pan. Reply with quote

check out some of the front suspensions volksrodders use. I'd do something with a tube axle or drop axle on a Bugatti that would look much more period correct. the 1/4 elliptic would be sweet.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=606862
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