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Komissar
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Joined: May 18, 2008
Posts: 894
Location: Bucharest, Romania
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 Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 8:01 am Post subject: Looking for pictures of experimental variants of the Kubel |
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Hello,
As I was reading through Wikipedia's page dedicated to the Kubelwagen I came across a list of special variants and modifications of the standard Kubelwagen - some I was aware of, others no.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_K%C3%BCbelwagen
A couple of them interests me for obvious reasons and I was wondering if anybody has any pictures of those cars, more important pictures with the parts that made them unique:
Type 107: Fitted with a turbocharger
Type 115: Fitted with a supercharger
Type 164: Six-wheeled, twin engine, dual-control prototype; never entered production
Type 177: Fitted with a five-speed transmission (as opposed to the standard four-speed unit)
Type 179: Fitted with fuel-injected Volkswagen engine
Type 198: Fitted with a PTO and auxiliary gearbox for starting the engines of armoured fighting vehicles[8]
Type 235: Fitted for power by an electric motor
Type 307: Fitted with a heavy-duty carburetor
Type 309: Prototype fitted with a diesel engine
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bart de laet
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Joined: December 20, 2003
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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Hire is already a picture of the type 198.
Manny of these type's where not always a complete vehicle but often something like a engine or gearbox. |
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Kapt. Q
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Joined: May 28, 2011
Posts: 256
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| The Type 198 actually was produced so pictures exist, I am unaware of pictures of the other experimental vehicles within the public domain. |
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mandraks
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Joined: November 28, 2004
Posts: 7047
Location: Lawrenceville, Ga
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2014 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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diesel seems feasible
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'53 3-Fold Oval, L35 Metallic Blue, looking for a narrow hatch panel |
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Komissar
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Joined: May 18, 2008
Posts: 894
Location: Bucharest, Romania
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 12:37 am Post subject: |
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Hello and thanks for the replies.
Yes, I know about the pos-war split prototype, however, I suppose that the war-time kubel one used an existing small diesel motor rather than converting a flat 4 (the one in the Diesel Split is a Porsche block at origin).
That would be interesting to see...
together with the fuel injected and super- and turocharged versions 
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1965 Sunroof Beetle
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1978 Skoda 105S |
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Kapt. Q
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Joined: May 28, 2011
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Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun May 11, 2014 1:08 am Post subject: |
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I would imagine that the diesel worked on by Porsche during the war would have been derived from the VW flat four. It is not unlikely that the split diesel was ultimately drawing on the wartime development work. This was the case with other wartime Porsche projects like the tractor 'volksschlepper' which led to tractors actually being made postwar in cooperation with Porsche.
Ps. Porsche did extensive work on air-cooled diesels for tank application too. |
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MDKG
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Joined: October 16, 2008
Posts: 1088
Location: The Netherlands
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 1:13 am Post subject: Re: Looking for pictures of experimental variants of the Kub |
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| Komissar wrote: |
Hello,
As I was reading through Wikipedia's page dedicated to the Kubelwagen I came across a list of special variants and modifications of the standard Kubelwagen - some I was aware of, others no.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_K%C3%BCbelwagen
A couple of them interests me for obvious reasons and I was wondering if anybody has any pictures of those cars, more important pictures with the parts that made them unique:
Type 107: Fitted with a turbocharger
Type 115: Fitted with a supercharger
Type 164: Six-wheeled, twin engine, dual-control prototype; never entered production
Type 177: Fitted with a five-speed transmission (as opposed to the standard four-speed unit)
Type 179: Fitted with fuel-injected Volkswagen engine
Type 198: Fitted with a PTO and auxiliary gearbox for starting the engines of armoured fighting vehicles[8]
Type 235: Fitted for power by an electric motor
Type 307: Fitted with a heavy-duty carburetor
Type 309: Prototype fitted with a diesel engine |
I think the author of the wiki information made the assumption that all types were Kubels. But they were also for other vehicles or only engines.
Are you familiar with the book Brith of the Beetle by Chris Barber?
This is by far the best book on early Beetle history IMHO. It also describes all the different variations on the Beetle theme.
On the type 107 and 115 Barber says:
"Type 107 was antother study, but interestingly it was called 'Turbocharger for Type 60'. As far as is known, this never went beyond the design stage, possibly because a simpler solution to more power was the Type 115 - a supercharger for the VW 1.1 litre engine - wchich was presumably the supercharged engine seen in the photographs."
Here is one of the pics of the typ 115 engine:
The type 164 was indeed based on a Kubel but was never build
Type 177 is not mentioned. Type 179 was only a study according to Barber. Type 309 same story: only a design study. The other types are not mentioned if I am correct.
Definately worth to get a copy of the book (if you can find one  ) IMHO
edit: holy crap  online prices for (used) copies of BotB reach 500+ USD!!!
Last edited by MDKG on Mon May 12, 2014 1:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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bart de laet
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Joined: December 20, 2003
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 1:24 am Post subject: |
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Type 107 or 115
The type 309 was a two stroke diesel engine for tractor 1945 |
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usariemen
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Joined: August 28, 2004
Posts: 1745
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 10:34 am Post subject: Re: Looking for pictures of experimental variants of the Kub |
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| MDKG wrote: |
edit: holy crap online prices for (used) copies of BotB reach 500+ USD!!! |
The german version you can buy all day long for $ 50 !
I have an english version. Makes me think on offering it for sale.
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Kapt. Q
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Joined: May 28, 2011
Posts: 256
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 11:46 am Post subject: Re: Looking for pictures of experimental variants of the Kub |
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| MDKG wrote: |
The type 164 was indeed based on a Kubel but was never build
!! |
Interesting, it is clearly not based on the production kubelwagen, but instead the 1st prototype kubelwagen that was quite different. It also features a reverse facing second drivers position for a hasty retreat, something found in some German armoured cars of the time.
Cheers! |
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Kapt. Q
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| Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| bart de laet wrote: |
The type 309 was a two stroke diesel engine for tractor 1945 |
Are you sure? I see this listed as being a VW commissioned project for their cars.
Cheers |
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tobiasax
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Joined: May 07, 2004
Posts: 202
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Looking for pictures of experimental variants of the Kub |
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| MDKG wrote: |
Are you familiar with the book Brith of the Beetle by Chris Barber?
This is by far the best book on early Beetle history IMHO. It also describes all the different variations on the Beetle theme.
On the type 107 and 115 Barber says:
"Type 107 was antother study, but interestingly it was called 'Turbocharger for Type 60'. As far as is known, this never went beyond the design stage, possibly because a simpler solution to more power was the Type 115 - a supercharger for the VW 1.1 litre engine - wchich was presumably the supercharged engine seen in the photographs."
Here is one of the pics of the typ 115 engine:
The type 164 was indeed based on a Kubel but was never build
Type 177 is not mentioned. Type 179 was only a study according to Barber. Type 309 same story: only a design study. The other types are not mentioned if I am correct.
Definately worth to get a copy of the book (if you can find one ) IMHO
edit: holy crap online prices for (used) copies of BotB reach 500+ USD!!! |
Barbers book is excellent! But, in this particular case I think he was mistaken. The engine in the kdf Wagen is not a type 115. It is probably a type 170 sturmboot protoype converted for car use. The type 115 was an OHC engine with a centrifugal supercharger. See my blog: http://lowlightkaizen.blogspot.com
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alanhall
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Posts: 115
Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: Looking for pictures of experimental variants of the Kub |
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I have seen a graph of power, torque and, I believe, fuel consumption versus engine speed from dyno tests, prepared by Porsche in 1950 comparing the following motors: a "Typ VW Kompressor", a "Typ 170 Sturmboot", a "Typ 367 Vogelsang", a "Typ 369 sport", a "typ KdF" and one other.
According to my notes I made of this graph, the Kompressor motor made the most power at lower rpm but dropped off at about 3500rpm with 42hp and no data was taken above 3500. The typ 367 made the most power at higher rpm with 48hp at 4600rpm. The sturmboot motor made 44hp at 4000rpm and the typ 369 made 43hp at 4400rpm and the KdF motor made 29hp at 3300rpm.
One odd thing about the Kompreeor motor is a reference to it having four Pallas MP30 carburetors which seems strange for a supercharged motor as usually supercharged motors have one large carb upstream of the supercharger, while this motor apparently fed compressed air to four individual carburetors.
Does this Kompressor motor sound like the typ 115 motor? Also anyone know what the typ 367 motor was? |
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tobiasax
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Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: Looking for pictures of experimental variants of the Kub |
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| alanhall wrote: |
I have seen a graph of power, torque and, I believe, fuel consumption versus engine speed from dyno tests, prepared by Porsche in 1950 comparing the following motors: a "Typ VW Kompressor", a "Typ 170 Sturmboot", a "Typ 367 Vogelsang", a "Typ 369 sport", a "typ KdF" and one other.
According to my notes I made of this graph, the Kompressor motor made the most power at lower rpm but dropped off at about 3500rpm with 42hp and no data was taken above 3500. The typ 367 made the most power at higher rpm with 48hp at 4600rpm. The sturmboot motor made 44hp at 4000rpm and the typ 369 made 43hp at 4400rpm and the KdF motor made 29hp at 3300rpm.
One odd thing about the Kompreeor motor is a reference to it having four Pallas MP30 carburetors which seems strange for a supercharged motor as usually supercharged motors have one large carb upstream of the supercharger, while this motor apparently fed compressed air to four individual carburetors.
Does this Kompressor motor sound like the typ 115 motor? Also anyone know what the typ 367 motor was? |
Through a collector who wish to be anynomous I have got lot of information related to these early engines. My intention is to present this on my blog. So far I have covered 115 and 170. They will be followed by 171, 174, 174 A and 367. (The latter a post-war Porsche prototype by the way).
Your data is very interesting. The 115 was an OHC racing engine, thus I don't think it's the one your table mention. My feeling is that the "kompressor" motor is the type 170 (sturmboat motor based on normal kdf engine with roots kompressor) and that the higher reving one is a type 171 (a dual carb sturmboat engine with hemisphearical combustion chambers). But, it's only a guess. Perhaps there is another kompressor engine?
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alanhall
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Location: Northern California
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| Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: Looking for pictures of experimental variants of the Kub |
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| The only other information which might help identify these motors is the carburation data. The Typ VW Kompressor motor had, as I mentioned, 4 Pallas MP30 carbs (or perhaps they are MP carbs with 30mm venturies), the Typ 170 Sturmboot motor had 2 Solex 26VFI carbs with 24mm venturies, the typ 367 had 2 Solex 32FJ carbs with 26mm venturies, the typ 369 sport had 2 Solex 32PBIC carbs with 26mm venturies, and the KdF engine had 1 Solex 26VFJ carb with 21.5mm venturi. |
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