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No_Smoking
Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2015
Posts: 30
Location: Springfield OR
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 Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:28 pm Post subject: Type 3 engines and its relation with transmissions. |
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Some of you know, I'm a new 69 fasty owner, and it has an automatic trans in it. I'm going to need a new engine for it, but I started thinking.. will any type 3 engine work on it? 1600cc, 1776cc, or any variation onto any transmission type, manual or automatic?
Are there any special precautions, conditions or requirements to selecting a new engine?
lol I felt embarrassed to ask that because that might have been super common knowledge =D
and as a follow up question, does anyone by chance know a local vendor (Springfield/Eugene Oregon) that might be selling engines?
thanks guys! |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22728
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:57 am Post subject: Re: Type 3 engines and its relation with transmissions. |
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| No_Smoking wrote: |
Some of you know, I'm a new 69 fasty owner, and it has an automatic trans in it. I'm going to need a new engine for it, but I started thinking.. will any type 3 engine work on it? 1600cc, 1776cc, or any variation onto any transmission type, manual or automatic?
Are there any special precautions, conditions or requirements to selecting a new engine?
lol I felt embarrassed to ask that because that might have been super common knowledge =D
and as a follow up question, does anyone by chance know a local vendor (Springfield/Eugene Oregon) that might be selling engines?
thanks guys! |
No, I don't know any Type 3 people anywhere in your area at all- nobody for hundreds of miles in any direction- Sorry, dude!  
Let me know when you'll have time to bring the engine by and we'll take a peek. Any ideas what's really wrong with it? they said it ran but had a noise, right?
For starters, an "engine knock" on a Type 3 might just be a loose fan...
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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34021
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Type 3 engines and its relation with transmissions. |
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| One unique thing about your engine requirements... not because it is a Type 3, but because it is an automatic: I've read (and seen) that the cam plug is installed backwards, i.e., cup facing out, not in, for automatics, in order to allow some potential machining needed to clear the flex plate. |
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Donnie strickland
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Joined: December 21, 2009
Posts: 2403
Location: Moody, AL
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:03 am Post subject: Re: Type 3 engines and its relation with transmissions. |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| One unique thing about your engine requirements... not because it is a Type 3, but because it is an automatic: I've read (and seen) that the cam plug is installed backwards, i.e., cup facing out, not in, for automatics, in order to allow some potential machining needed to clear the flex plate. |
That is correct, the cam plug is installed backwards (closed side facing into the motor) on an automatic car so the torque converter bolts won't hit it.
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Mike Fisher
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Joined: January 30, 2006
Posts: 17970
Location: Eugene, OR
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:21 am Post subject: Re: Type 3 engines and its relation with transmissions. |
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You will also have to use a late model engine block that is drilled & tapped for the IRS rear engine hanger (mustache) bar.
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69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22431
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:47 am Post subject: Re: Type 3 engines and its relation with transmissions. |
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| No_Smoking wrote: |
Some of you know, I'm a new 69 fasty owner, and it has an automatic trans in it. I'm going to need a new engine for it, but I started thinking.. will any type 3 engine work on it? 1600cc, 1776cc, or any variation onto any transmission type, manual or automatic?
Are there any special precautions, conditions or requirements to selecting a new engine?
lol I felt embarrassed to ask that because that might have been super common knowledge =D
and as a follow up question, does anyone by chance know a local vendor (Springfield/Eugene Oregon) that might be selling engines?
thanks guys! |
You've got a few things to think about before getting too far.
The first is what are you doing for fuel? Carbs? Or FI? With AT, FI really does work better (more suited to it).
Next is what size engine do you want? And do you want heat with it? Just asking, as you start limiting engine size if you want to keep the heat exchangers. Also, if you want FI, you have to watch the engine size as well.
Since you have AT, you have to use the AT only flexplate, and NOT the MT flywheel. If you don't have one, then you'll need to locate one.
Now, if I were doing up a new engine, I'd probably go 1776, FI (with MS), and keep the heat exchangers. Don't get me wrong, I love my 1600 with dual carbs, but with an AT, I've found that a little more uumph would come in handy (my wife's Fastback has AT and stock FI).
Talk to the Gorrilla in "Springtucky", and see if he can help you out. I only say that, as we don't know what the PO did when he removed the engine.
P.S. Don't even think about trying to convert the car to MT, as it's really a ton of work, and you litteraly need a parts car for the bits and pieces you'd need (it's actually cheaper to buy a MT car in the first place).
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71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22728
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:08 am Post subject: Re: Type 3 engines and its relation with transmissions. |
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| Donnie strickland wrote: |
| KTPhil wrote: |
| One unique thing about your engine requirements... not because it is a Type 3, but because it is an automatic: I've read (and seen) that the cam plug is installed backwards, i.e., cup facing out, not in, for automatics, in order to allow some potential machining needed to clear the flex plate. |
That is correct, the cam plug is installed backwards (closed side facing into the motor) on an automatic car so the torque converter bolts won't hit it. |
After the Autos came out, VW basically trained techs to install the cam plugs "backwards" in all Type 3 engines to avoid confusion. In a pinch, the cam plug can be gently "dimpled" in and packed with silicone adhesive sealant around the edges to clear the flex plate and still not leak.
Mike Fisher is right- you'll need a case with the bosses drilled out and tapped for the rear engine mounting bar.
An Automatic needs a cut out on the passenger side case half at the bottom to access the torque converter bolts- but this can be done neatly with a grinder if all you can find is a manual case.
They make an adapter plate to run the rear engine bar on engines that aren't tapped for it, but this is a bad idea on an upright going into a bay bus, and an even worse idea on a Type 3 due to the added weight right in that area of the fan, housing, gen, and big heavy muff and the fact that the adapter attaches to your four tiny oil pump studs... don't even think about it.
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No_Smoking
Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2015
Posts: 30
Location: Springfield OR
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Type 3 engines and its relation with transmissions. |
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- Backwards cam plug. =/ that doesn't sound like something easy to do? edit: ah, just read Trams post about dimpling it.
- Don't even think about converting to manual, got it =)
I don't know engine size or anything internal about it. I know it came with dual carbs and is not fuel injected. I don't really have a plan, just whatever is more fuel efficient. I'd love as much power as possible of course, but its just going to be a daily driver, no racing or anything lol.
| Tram wrote: |
Let me know when you'll have time to bring the engine by and we'll take a peek. Any ideas what's really wrong with it? they said it ran but had a noise, right?
For starters, an "engine knock" on a Type 3 might just be a loose fan... |
I believe he said it made a metallic squealing type noise. he seemed sure the engine was trashed tho, but don't know really, what he was basing it off of. He mentioned this forum, so many he's listening? xD
I have time, anytime you're willing and able! Just shoot me an email/PM on when you're available, and I will do my best to make the time =) |
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Erik G
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Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13281
Location: Tejas!
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Type 3 engines and its relation with transmissions. |
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| Tram wrote: |
They make an adapter plate to run the rear engine bar on engines that aren't tapped for it, but this is a bad idea on an upright going into a bay bus, and an even worse idea on a Type 3 due to the added weight right in that area of the fan, housing, gen, and big heavy muff and the fact that the adapter attaches to your four tiny oil pump studs... don't even think about it. |
Ive done it - it's a terrible idea, don't even think about it. You can't even use it as is, some parts have to be cut off and it's just really a terrible terrible idea
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22431
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 engines and its relation with transmissions. |
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| No_Smoking wrote: |
I don't know engine size or anything internal about it. I know it came with dual carbs and is not fuel injected. I don't really have a plan, just whatever is more fuel efficient. I'd love as much power as possible of course, but its just going to be a daily driver, no racing or anything lol. |
How about posting up some pics of it then. More than likely it's a 1600.
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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No_Smoking
Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2015
Posts: 30
Location: Springfield OR
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 engines and its relation with transmissions. |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| How about posting up some pics of it then. |
Good idea! =D
I posted a bunch in my gallery
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22728
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 engines and its relation with transmissions. |
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Aha.
That's not an automatic case. How much you wanna bet that the squealing noise is the flex plate rubbing the cam plug?  Hey, nuttier things have happened. It is a mid- '71 on case, though, with the hole in the bell housing for the "VW Diagnosis" timing sensor, so that works as access for your torque converter bolts.
Got your EM- let me figure out WTF is going on over here this week and I'll send you a time to get together and take a peek at this thing.
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| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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No_Smoking
Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2015
Posts: 30
Location: Springfield OR
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:30 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 engines and its relation with transmissions. |
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oh, wow. Now you've got me really excited that maybe....just maybe I wont need a new one?
hmmm.. I'm wondering though... I didn't have a tarp on it for the trip home, and like I was saying, he seemed convinced it was only good for a core exchange. How bad is it, if some water got in there? dangit, I knew I should have stuffed some rags or something over those (intake manifolds?) |
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Erik G
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Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13281
Location: Tejas!
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 engines and its relation with transmissions. |
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| No_Smoking wrote: |
oh, wow. Now you've got me really excited that maybe....just maybe I wont need a new one?
hmmm.. I'm wondering though... I didn't have a tarp on it for the trip home, and like I was saying, he seemed convinced it was only good for a core exchange. How bad is it, if some water got in there? dangit, I knew I should have stuffed some rags or something over those (intake manifolds?) |
drain it now
I have drained an engine with literally gallons of water in it. Surprisingly, it ran awesome once cleaned up, new rings, cleaned up the heads, etc. The oil that was in it kept everything from rusting... I got lucky - don't count on it
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No_Smoking
Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2015
Posts: 30
Location: Springfield OR
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 engines and its relation with transmissions. |
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| Erik G wrote: |
drain it now
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Ok, i'll have to try and figure out a way to prop it up to drain it. I have zero stands/mounts for it =/
If I remember correctly, the cam shaft is near the bottom of the case.. I tried to get a photo of that area. Seems like a really tight fit.
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Erik G
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 engines and its relation with transmissions. |
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in between two milk crates, two coffee tables, drill a large hole in a coffee table, etc. drain, fill and turn over to get some oil protecting everything again
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Donnie strickland
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Joined: December 21, 2009
Posts: 2403
Location: Moody, AL
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: Type 3 engines and its relation with transmissions. |
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| No_Smoking wrote: |
If I remember correctly, the cam shaft is near the bottom of the case.. I tried to get a photo of that area. Seems like a really tight fit.
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This is what you're looking for. Notice also the access port cast into the left case half (the black part is the engine stand):
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Multi69s
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airschooled
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| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Type 3 engines and its relation with transmissions. |
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Did VW eventually recommend using the diagnostic hole on top to access torque converter bolts, or did they continue making the different case bottoms through the end of T3 production?
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