| Author |
Message |
ClassicCamper
Samba Member
Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679
|
 Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:24 am Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again |
 |
|
Mileage is roughly 450-600 on them. (can you tell I having a pending odometer fix coming up? Lol)
I'm in the process of going through your 'before you drive this car' checklist to make sure I don't miss anything. Drivetrain, brakes, rear suspension all 100% Very labor intensive, but extremely satisfying. The fuel injection is now flawless. I appreciate you hanginig in there with me doing the component by component testing.
The front end is tight with no wobbles, but I havent done the inspection you recommended. This winter's project. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:01 am Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again |
|
|
OK, I'll be ordering shocks for my car, and unless there is something new discovered I will buy the Ford shocks suggested here.
One interesting question. My car is a 71 sedan, and the suspension is solid on all four wheels----doesn't bounce or feel loose. But it's 45 years old, and surely should be replaced. Now the front was replaced in 1977. The rear shocks are original, the reason I know is I'm the original owner----bought the car new. Also you can tell they are original because the carpet over the access plates in the window parcel area has never been removed. What do you think about that?
Anyhow I will install the Ford shocks unless advised otherwise. Bob |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:05 am Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again |
|
|
| titan3c wrote: |
OK, I'll be ordering shocks for my car, and unless there is something new discovered I will buy the Ford shocks suggested here.
One interesting question. My car is a 71 sedan, and the suspension is solid on all four wheels----doesn't bounce or feel loose. But it's 45 years old, and surely should be replaced. Now the front was replaced in 1977. The rear shocks are original, the reason I know is I'm the original owner----bought the car new. Also you can tell they are original because the carpet over the access plates in the window parcel area has never been removed. What do you think about that?
Anyhow I will install the Ford shocks unless advised otherwise. Bob |
Its so nice to be either original owner or at least have all the records so you know what has been done or not.
The rear shocks on variants/wagons were gas from the factory....and oil on two and four doors.
They last a very long time and were very stiff from the factory because they are mounted on the rear trailing arm very far from the pivot. This creates high leverage.
Because most of the cars weight is over the rear shocks and the springs are quite massive....its hard to actually know from normal testing that the rears are worn. Typically you notice an improvement just replacing them.
Be sure you get the 1/2 ton shocks....and note the age/date stamp on the shock. More than about five years old is not recommended. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:43 am Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again |
|
|
Qustion: What's the difference between the Gabriel's 81694, and 81490 that LAHTI411 mentioned and the KYB KG 5410? They are about half the cost at Autozone.
He seems to be happy with the ones he installed. Bob |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:26 am Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again |
|
|
Didn't finish my question on my previous post.
Also Autozone lists 4 shocks as KYB KG5410. Priced $10.62, 36.60, 36.93, and 44.14. The one at $10.62 is described as a nanotube, and the 36.93 is painted white. Other than that they appear to all be the same, except the white one looks a little different in size.
What would be the difference----wouldn't a KYB KG 5410 be the same---I don't understand why the different prices. Bob |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again |
|
|
If someone trusted here notes that a shock works well on these cars....like lahti411.....then it should work well.
Over the years with shocks on these cars I draw the line against mixing and matching brands for the same application just for price or availability. ...because from brand ro brand and series to series.....shocks can be radically different even if valved with the same orifice sizes and spring tensions....simply due to piston diameter, fluid viscosity, etc.etc.
The KYB gas-a-just is a very well proven replacemnet. The KYB Gr-2 on the other hand will die a quick death and have muddy handling on these cars.
I have destroyed dozens of shocks ...some very expensive....over the years on the back ends of these cars to get an understanding of how rough the rear suspension is on these shocks.
So...let me guess....you walked into the FLAPS and ordered front shocks for a Ford Econoline 1/2 ton.....and the computer shows about four different shocks.......or you ordered by part # KYB 5410.......and got four different shocks.
This is classic flaps. They are going to sell you SOMETHING either way. All will fit the econoline......all will fit the back end of your car....only one is the actual KYB 5410 gas-a-just series.
The valving will be slightly different on all of them.....and the only ones proven to work well are the KYB gas-a-just and the Gabriel versions that Lahti411 is running.
I would stick with what is known. The gas-a-just version are thicker....white with red letters and usually the more expensive. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:59 am Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again |
|
|
OK---I get it, but what's confusing to me is the shocks Autozone lists are all KYB KG gas adjust 5410, and all(except the white one) look the same as the one pictured by classic camper. There is something misleading here---for me anyway. I might stop by a Autozone store, and see what their explanation is(if there is one). If they can give me an explanation similar to what you say then I would have confidence that they may know what there talking about.
If I was shopping and they came out with a KYB KG 5410 for $10.00 I would buy it, not knowing that there is a better quality KYB KG5410. It seems to me that shocks with that description would all be the same. Bob |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:01 pm Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again |
|
|
| titan3c wrote: |
OK---I get it, but what's confusing to me is the shocks Autozone lists are all KYB KG gas adjust 5410, and all(except the white one) look the same as the one pictured by classic camper. There is something misleading here---for me anyway. I might stop by a Autozone store, and see what their explanation is(if there is one). If they can give me an explanation similar to what you say then I would have confidence that they may know what there talking about.
If I was shopping and they came out with a KYB KG 5410 for $10.00 I would buy it, not knowing that there is a better quality KYB KG5410. It seems to me that shocks with that description would all be the same. Bob |
Ok...something almost forgotten here. In the past 2-3 years...KYB changed their paint colors on these parts.
1. The KYB Gas-a-just (high pressure gas) used to be white with a red "Gas-a-just" logo decal. They are now silver.
2. The KYB GR-2 (low pressure gas/oil) used to be the same color silver that the Gas-a-just are now and are now black and called KYB excel-G.
If the KYB 5410 Gas-a-just you see at the store is still white paint...check the date stamp down near the lower eye. If its over 3 years old...I say dont buy it.
many times what you are seeing when you plug in a part number like KYB KG5410....is every part # that will interchange.
For example right now Autozone search on KG5410 will give you:
http://www.autozone.com/suspension-steering-tire-a...umber=true
Which shows an up to date painted version of the KYB Gas-a-just for $60.99 each
Right next to it as cross reference is the Gabriel ultra shock at $39,99 each
http://www.autozone.com/suspension-steering-tire-a...omType=oem
Now...if you shop by vehicle...say like a 1990 model Ford E150 1/2 ton van...you get all of these:
http://www.autozone.com/suspension-steering-tire-a...-y-4-9l-fi
And the crazy part is that not one of them in the list is KG5410
There are between 7 and 11 different shocks Autozone stocks just from some quick searching....for the E-150 1/2 ton...which was produced from 1961-2015. 
Be wary of older series shocks that are "cheap". Not worth it because they can fail quickly. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again |
|
|
| Thanks Ray, I may have made an error in what I really clicked on. I think now I may have looked at Amazon. I was searching for Autozone, and going down the listings I clicked onto Amazon instead of Autozone. The reason I think that is because Amazon has this shock. Silver, listed at ten dollars and something as a 49.00 saving. I forget what the scratched out price was. I don't know anything about Amazon, so I don't know what to think of this. It all looks legitimate, but that sure is cheap. Thanks for helping me, sometimes I get carried away with enthusiasm. I may be old, but I'm not dumb yet. Bob |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again |
|
|
| titan3c wrote: |
| Thanks Ray, I may have made an error in what I really clicked on. I think now I may have looked at Amazon. I was searching for Autozone, and going down the listings I clicked onto Amazon instead of Autozone. The reason I think that is because Amazon has this shock. Silver, listed at ten dollars and something as a 49.00 saving. I forget what the scratched out price was. I don't know anything about Amazon, so I don't know what to think of this. It all looks legitimate, but that sure is cheap. Thanks for helping me, sometimes I get carried away with enthusiasm. I may be old, but I'm not dumb yet. Bob |
While Amazon is excellnt for a great many things...including simple name brand car parts like say....oil filters....when they come in a clean undisturbed box, or sparkplugs a local auto supply does not stock etc......things that will not wear, rot or die from age if properly stored no matter who you buy them from THROUGH Amazon......see.....on Amazon....unless its listed in fine print as being in Amazons warehouse......you are buying from any one of millions of "partner" businesses.
Amazon does not get to look at the condition or quality of these parts.
I do not buy condition and age critical auto parts on Amazon....like brake or hydraulic parts. Balls joints and tie rod end....maybe.
Rockauto has KG-5410's for $32 each. Or......Autozone is fine also....but if you can.....go to the store to get them. If they are the wrong color (old series) or poorly stored (rust damage etc.)....you can refuse them. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ClassicCamper
Samba Member
Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:53 am Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again |
|
|
If anyone is interested in KYB rear 3/4 ton Gas-Adjust shocks that bolt right on, PM me, perhaps we can arrange a trade. No mods necessary to install. They are too firm for my liking. Probably 450-600 miles on them. If you have people in back seat or tend to carry cargo in the hatch area, these work great.
_________________
1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert
Last edited by ClassicCamper on Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:54 am; edited 3 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:14 am Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again |
|
|
| INTERESTING: On Amazon if you scroll down you will see in the details a heading "date part first listed". This is a clue as to the mfg date. I noticed that the KYB KG 5410 priced at $10.66 shows a first listed date of 2005, and the one priced at $31.00 shows a date of 2011. Wonder if the price has to do with trying to get rid of older stock by pricing lower depending on age. I think so. Bob |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 6:05 am Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again |
|
|
| Haven't figured out how to quote and post yet, but I have a question for LAHTl411. Which rear shock did you use? You mentioned the 81694, and the 81490. Bob |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:22 am Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again |
|
|
| titan3c wrote: |
| INTERESTING: On Amazon if you scroll down you will see in the details a heading "date part first listed". This is a clue as to the mfg date. I noticed that the KYB KG 5410 priced at $10.66 shows a first listed date of 2005, and the one priced at $31.00 shows a date of 2011. Wonder if the price has to do with trying to get rid of older stock by pricing lower depending on age. I think so. Bob |
Most probably. Vendors know the issues with,shocks.....more than 3-5 years of dis-use.....and its a risk that the rubber seals will not seal.
You will virtually never hear this mentioned from the industry.....but over the years....some of the buying public....most especially the technical and hobbyist.....like us......have gotten wise.
I found out this very way. I used to shop at a fantastic foreign parts chain when I lived in Atlanta....NOPI. Since I knew the owner.....was a frequent buyer....he used to sell me old stock parts that were 411/412 specific that he found in his inventory. ...at just above cost. This was 1989-1992.
Most of the parts were 5-7 years old and pretty much off the inventory because they were so old. It was a bargain for things like clutches, hard parts he would never sell.........and ended up buying two sets of front strut cartridges.......one Boge and the other KYB.......and a master cylinder...ATE.....and a master cylinder rebuild kit.
The Boge struts lasted about 1500 miles. Never leaked externally ......but were totally dead internally. The owner noted that they were probably suspect.....but at $10 each......it was worth the risk as nothing else was available.
The KYB's were a little newer. Lasted about 5k miles......but were seeping externally from day one. The outer seals were dry. Eventually what killed them was just running too low on fluid.
Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
titan3c
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2012
Posts: 568
Location: Coweta, Oklahoma
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:05 am Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again |
|
|
| LAHTi411 mentioned the Gabriel shocks 81694, 811490. Wonder which one he installed that he was real pleased with. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lahti411
Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2005
Posts: 223
Location: Lahti, Finland
|
| Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again |
|
|
I must check under the car what i have there at the moment. Many people have asked me about the rear shocks recently. I tried to search for photos or receipts about the installation and shocks but couldn't find anything so now i'm bit confused what i have there...
Anyway, i have driven with the new shocks (front and rear) for more than 10000 km's and they still perform really well. In a shock absorber test in the m.o.t last autumn the car gave great results!
_________________
My cars: 1972 VW 411 Variant; 1973 VW 412 4d sedan |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ClassicCamper
Samba Member
Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:58 am Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again |
|
|
I have new KYB gas-adjust rear shocks (3/4 ton) which are wayyy to still for my 412 wagon. I don't particularly like the ride. If I can help,out another Type 4 member, and you have a use for them...I'll be glad to box up and send to you. Just pay to ship. Again, they are very stiff. If anyone has 1/2 ton ones to trade with me,mthat would be even better.
I was thinking about getting these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-Type-4-411-412-Sedan-Ne...mp;vxp=mtr
Thoughts?
_________________
1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:03 am Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again |
|
|
| ClassicCamper wrote: |
I have new KYB gas-adjust rear shocks (3/4 ton) which are wayyy to still for my 412 wagon. I don't particularly like the ride. If I can help,out another Type 4 member, and you have a use for them...I'll be glad to box up and send to you. Just pay to ship. Again, they are very stiff. If anyone has 1/2 ton ones to trade with me,mthat would be even better.
I was thinking about getting these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-Type-4-411-412-Sedan-Ne...mp;vxp=mtr
Thoughts? |
The rules of buying shocks........DO NOT......buy them unless you can hold them in your hands and inspect the date code and cycle them.
Or.....unless you have the ability to return them with no,questions asked.
The maximum "disconneted" or ....uninspectable. ....purchase I would make for either front or rear shocks for these cars.....is Rockauto....because they go through a lot of them, the KYB and others we have talked about here.....fit MILLIONS of vehicles. .....in short......you know the shocks you buy through the mail from Rockauto are most probably NOT too old.
Bear in mind.....
1 .Beck Arnley does not really manufacture anything. Though they have excellent parts.....you have no idea who made these....and it does make a difference.
2. From the lower bushing eye....it does look like the 411/412 sedan specific shock.
That shock has not been made since about 1990......so I am betting they are really old.
3. Those are oil shocks. The wagons in the US all came with gas charged from the factory in the rear. It makes a big difference especially since the wagon has no rear sway bar.
In my experience.....the life was fairly short with oil shocks on the back of wagons.
Unless a date can be provided that is somehow up to date within three years.....which I have no idea how....because that lower bushing eye does not fit on any of the E150 or F150.....they are suspect as to whether they will work more than a few hundred miles.
They are not worth more than $5-10 each.
I would just buy something we know is the same valving and works.
Let me explain:......you notice how the 3/4 aton ae too stiff for your liking? ......which I find a little odd because the 3/4 is only margially stiffer than the 1/2 ton.......but ok.......this is because of a valving change internally.
I know for a fact....that the 1/2 ton E-150 shock...internally. ..is the same EXACT shock as the one KYB produced for the 411/412......for two reasons. 1. The KYB catalog from 25 years ago lists it as such in the cross match section. 2. Not believing this myself at the time.....I pulled one from a Junkyard in Dallas Texas and cut it open and compared it to the guts of a dead 411/412 specific shock I already had. Same shock....and I have used about 5 sets on my personal cars over the years and installed more of them on others.
So we know this shock works.....a bit more control than stock but works well.
I also know....the KYB Gr-2 (now called the excell-G) does NOT work. Very short nasty life.It is too soft and dies quickly. It IS an E-150 shock....which has huge springs and short leverage.
The KYB Gas-a-just....as used on the E-150 van.....was a serious upgrade. On the 411/412.....it was a minor upgrade only about 10% stiffer than stock because of the leverage difference.
Because of the huge range of variations in gas, oil and valving available in shocks that fit in an E-150.......you have to be careful.....very few will actually work well and safely in the 411/412.
The shocks in the E-150 front end.....were not nearly the hugely active part of the suspenion as they are in the 411/412. In fact you can drive for years in an E-150 van on dead shocks and other than a noisier ride that wears out control arm bushings and vibrates o rough pavement......you wont notice much. This is because on the E-150 van......they truely are used as "dampers" only. You can swap in any shock with a wide range of valving or gas filling.....and probably not notice the difference between them.
On the 411/412.....the differences will be huge. This is why KYB only offered a known cross match for the 411/412 in one series.....the gas-a-just. The other shock manufacturers were the same.
Monroe used to be a go-to oil shock for the 411/412 back in the 1970's and 80's. However.....they did not offer a 411/412 specific shock in any other series........even though they had several......that would bolt right in beause they fit the E-150........but because they were not valved properly......those other shocks handled horribly and life was short for them.
If you are just looking for an inexpensive way to go right now....and are willing to even try potentially ancient NOS shocks .....I have a set of NOS Sachs oil shocks for 411/412 sedan part # 411 513 031B......you can have. They still feel well.....but are old enough that they have no date codes. I bought them for $5 each in 1993. They had been laying on the stock shelf for years. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ClassicCamper
Samba Member
Joined: December 17, 2002
Posts: 679
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:45 am Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again |
|
|
| Quote: |
Let me explain:......you notice how the 3/4 aton ae too stiff for your liking? ......which I find a little odd because the 3/4 is only margially stiffer than the 1/2 ton.......but ok.......this is because of a valving change internally.
|
I wish they were too stiff for my liking. I could deal with that. These are rock hard and the way they rattle my car when I hit bumps, makes me uncomfortable. I don't want anything to break on the car. The shocks are new though.
If you would be interested in swapping my KYB's for your Sachs, youve got a deal. It could as simple as me not releasing shocks properly for all I know. Either way, PM me and let me know.
_________________
1973 412 Wagon
1976 Westy
1978 SB Vert |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:17 am Post subject: Re: Rear shock absorbers...again |
|
|
| ClassicCamper wrote: |
| Quote: |
Let me explain:......you notice how the 3/4 aton ae too stiff for your liking? ......which I find a little odd because the 3/4 is only margially stiffer than the 1/2 ton.......but ok.......this is because of a valving change internally.
|
I wish they were too stiff for my liking. I could deal with that. These are rock hard and the way they rattle my car when I hit bumps, makes me uncomfortable. I don't want anything to break on the car. The shocks are new though.
If you would be interested in swapping my KYB's for your Sachs, youve got a deal. It could as simple as me not releasing shocks properly for all I know. Either way, PM me and let me know. |
If they are Gas-a-justs and they are literally.....rock hard....no hyperbole terminology here.....then they are damaged old.
Its a widely known function/problem with KYB gas-a-just.....and a few others with,similar construction. The gas.....over time....if the seals are bad from age, or it they or stored wrong....they become "rock hard". They can literally take all of your weight to compress.
This is because the gas will bypass the floating piston, turn to foam and end up on both sides of the piston snd the foam will not allow the valves to operate properly.
Also bear in mind.....the rear shocks for type 4 cars.....are very stiff as compared to shocks for many other cars....easily twice as stiff as the front struts.
I would have no need for the 3/4 ton shocks. I have a 2 door sedan with less load in the rear. Also it would likely be another year before they are installed. You can have the Sachs oil shocks. They will work well.....may be a little soft for a wagon.....and I have no idea how long they will last.
They are OEM. They may last a very long time or only a couple of months. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
