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Street 2180 Thickwall
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petemart
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So finally got some time to keep going with the mock up.
Aussie $$ is absolutely crap to the US$ atm so holding out before I get the barrel shims, lighted piston pins and other boy-racer goodies sitting in the cart so it was just another check clearances session (and helping my buddy put his 1904 back together at the same time)

Focused on getting the cam running silky smooth with the dual thrusts after hand filing the second bearing tab into the case half.
Cam bearing was tight and cam was rolling the bearing out of the case when dropped in and turned.
I did a combo of gently hand sanding the sides of bearings with wet & dry on flat bench and once the cam felt smooth and binding had stopped, I bolted the cases back together and gave the flywheel end of the cam a little love tap every 10 degrees of rotation.
Worked a treat.

Had my first schoolboy error with the Scat cam gear and installed it to the crank gear at the '0' and then checked the clearance to crank & rods..
No problems with clearance, but something didn't feel right and the much trusted Samba search feature has revealed I'm 180deg out as you dont align the dot with the '0' but 180 degrees..

This was the only relevant photo I took.
Anyone know these steel on steel Scat Race gears are rock solid on the street?

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Bolted the Berg pump and the nuts need the tops knocked off but everything felt smoooooooth with the case torqued.



One positive from the night was getting the Flat 4 Knecht air filters my buddy sold me, they are Cool
They came home with me and are now sitting in the wankbank pile on my desk Very Happy

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Howard 111
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking good. The rolling the cam to check the cam bearings is something I would bet most newbies don't do. Keep it up! Very Happy
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petemart
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:33 am    Post subject: Re: Street 2180 Thickwall Reply with quote

Got the heads back from opening and CC'ing (56cc / 0.05-0.045(in) deck=9.46:1) and a few things I'm questioning.

Do you guys knock the super sharp edge off the chamber with a little wet and dry by hand or should I leave it?

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I'm also seeing that the chamber is slightly bias to the right on the right chamber of both heads and they both do have a little side play, I guess this is a result of the machining but do you see any issues or should I dry assemble each half with a little blue grease on the barrel top to see if it gets taken out when torqued?

Am I over thinking it and just knock the sharp edges off and get this thing built?

I also took a glamour shot while they are here...(just because..) Cool

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66brm
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2015 9:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Street 2180 Thickwall Reply with quote

Yep I've always deburred the chamber edge, not removing material but just smooth the edge.
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petemart
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:29 am    Post subject: Re: Street 2180 Thickwall Reply with quote

Cool, I'll smooth em
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petemart
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Street 2180 Thickwall Reply with quote

Slipped a sneaky day in to get out to my buddies, pull apart the bottom end, re align the Scat cam gears and install some lower CB cam bolts (now clears the pump), get the lifters oiled and greased ready to set the rockers.


The CB .040 shims I have measured out at .047 and with the .090's got the decks to .057 (#3) and approx .065 all the others.

Used a .030 and it's .039 (#3) and approx .046 all the others..

I'm happy to run a tight deck, but am I taking a gamble thinking that by the time I put three layers of Copper Silicon on the shims that the #3 0.039 will be over .040 or should I be hand sanding the larger shims and aiming at .044 #3 and .050 for the others?

I was running out of time, but did a quick check of the rocker geometry with the Berg 1.45 rockers and they seem to be all slightly too far to the left.

Anyone see any issues with moving the washer on the right to the left?

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I had just enough time to have a look at #3 exhaust with the adjustable and they seem to be a little high on the lash cap?

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I didn't get time to check for total lift, bind etc but aiming to keep the momentum in the next week
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Air Cooleds Only
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Street 2180 Thickwall Reply with quote

petemart wrote:

The CB .040 shims I have measured out at .047 and with the .090's got the decks to .057 (#3) and approx .065 all the others.

Used a .030 and it's .039 (#3) and approx .046 all the others..


What are you using to hold down the cylinder while checking deck?

You should have something holding the cylinder down snug to the case to get a good static number.

You can try swapping parts around. Throw a different piston on #3 and see if that changes your deck number.

Make sure your cylinders are sitting flat on the case, take a good minute to Inspect your combining parts, cylinders / Shims.
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Air Cooleds Only
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Street 2180 Thickwall Reply with quote

Bruce wrote:
petemart wrote:
..... and case half faced for the bigger/fatter M8mm 15mm head stud nuts & washers (Berg style)

Don't do this, it doesn't work.
In order to fit the thicker washer and thicker nut, you have to back the stud out of the left case half a bit. .


The case should be spotfaced deeper to accommodate the thicker washer.
No backing out studs, thats definitely not a good idea.
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petemart
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:59 am    Post subject: Re: Street 2180 Thickwall Reply with quote

Air Cooleds Only wrote:
petemart wrote:

The CB .040 shims I have measured out at .047 and with the .090's got the decks to .057 (#3) and approx .065 all the others.

Used a .030 and it's .039 (#3) and approx .046 all the others..


What are you using to hold down the cylinder while checking deck?

You should have something holding the cylinder down snug to the case to get a good static number.

You can try swapping parts around. Throw a different piston on #3 and see if that changes your deck number.

Make sure your cylinders are sitting flat on the case, take a good minute to Inspect your combining parts, cylinders / Shims.


Case has been decked for square, I measured all the shims and the barrels each side are level when torqued.

I'll try swapping the pistons to see if I can get two pistons around the .042 mark and the other two at .046 as it would be cool if it worked.

I used a chunk of 8mm thick L-angle steel I checked for flatness and then my buddy drilled holes for the studs and one in the middle of the piston and one to expose the barrel (to double check the steel thickness) so both barrels where torqued and measured at the same time.

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I had the case spot-faced for the thicker washers and I will replace the one shorter stud that the nut is short on the thread (under the front crank from memory) and a few of the bolts so there is no backing studs out at all.
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Air Cooleds Only
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:51 am    Post subject: Re: Street 2180 Thickwall Reply with quote

petemart wrote:

I used a chunk of 8mm thick L-angle steel I checked for flatness and then my buddy drilled holes for the studs and one in the middle of the piston and one to expose the barrel (to double check the steel thickness) so both barrels where torqued and measured at the same time.


The Plate is a good idea, As long as its flat and parallel. I personally would like to have one that's surface ground within .001-.002" Parallel

You could add some elongated holes on each side of the cylinder hole (3 & 9 o clock) to access the tops of the cylinders. Then you can take a measurement to make sure the cylinders are on the same plane.
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petemart
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 6:10 am    Post subject: Re: Street 2180 Thickwall Reply with quote

Re shimmed the rockers to work with the Revmasters so all looking much sexier:

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Sharpied each lash cap and went through them all with the adjustable push rod and got some great and some very funky results:

1 & 2 Side - Swipe on 1 looks ok, 2 not so good:
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2 exhaust rocker wasn't sitting flat on the lash cap at all:
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Same with the inlet:
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3 & 4 Side - Swipe on 3 Kind of ok and 4 not so good again:
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4 Exhaust not sitting flat again:
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I spent many hours hand linishing the offending rocker pads with some success but they are not the absolute rock&roll patterns I was hoping for:

Cylinder 1 Wipe Pattern:
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Cylinder 2 Wipe Pattern:
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Cylinder 3 Wipe Pattern:
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Cylinder 4 Wipe Pattern:
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There are no shims under the rockers.

Are these still too funky to run on a daily?


I checked all the inlet valve total lifts with a dial gauge and all were .540 so the 1.45 rockers on the SLR 302 with it's .378 advertised lift are working to 1.43 ratio so I'm fairly happy with that!
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petemart
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:17 am    Post subject: Re: Street 2180 Thickwall Reply with quote

No feedback is good feedback...right..?
So continuing along..

I dialled the cam with by checking top dead with a dial gauge and found out the Berg Degree ring is approx 3/4 degree out.
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No cam card came with the DRD R302 / Steve Long XR302 / Babe Erson XR302 so I dug around and made one for the next guy who goes looking.
The opening and closing times are 22 and 58 degrees:
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Checked at .050 and with the 3/4 fudge on the pulley it's near spot on.
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I checked #3 deck height again (the lowest) and it's spot on .040 and was ready to measure all the push-rods so I thought I would just double check that the heads are at 56cc as I instructed the machinist to cut them to..
I only have a CB Performance CC kit but I checked them all twice and they are all 50cc.
It seems that the machinist a lot use (and still use) has dropped the ball on these..

This obviously throws a spanner in the works as it results in 10.6:1 compression and after discussing it all with a very cluey few guys we feel the only decision (other than a new set of heads for this motor) is leave the heads alone, run the .040-.045 deck and chamber match the top of the pistons for the 6cc to get back to 9.6:1 as I don't want to run a .075 deck and have a dog..

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I'll measure the chambers, draw them in CAD and get it done.

Any feedback on radius' versus chamfers etc?
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esde
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:40 am    Post subject: Re: Street 2180 Thickwall Reply with quote

I can't advise you on the head cc issue, that really is a drag. Not like you can get those cc's back, I would grill the machinist on exactly how he was calculating the cc? That's a pretty crucial screw up.
Concerning the rocker contact pattern: which component is out of square? are the valve tips and lash caps square, or is it the rocker pad? If they are berg rockers, I would expect better. Did you contact them?
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petemart
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:53 am    Post subject: Re: Street 2180 Thickwall Reply with quote

esde wrote:
I can't advise you on the head cc issue, that really is a drag. Not like you can get those cc's back, I would grill the machinist on exactly how he was calculating the cc? That's a pretty crucial screw up.
Concerning the rocker contact pattern: which component is out of square? are the valve tips and lash caps square, or is it the rocker pad? If they are berg rockers, I would expect better. Did you contact them?


I r&r'd the lash caps and checked with a set of new Scat 1.4 rockers and it seems to be the valves.
The far right spring (#1 & #4 exhaust valves) sits lower than the others as well..
The more I look the more I find..
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petemart
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:39 am    Post subject: Re: Street 2180 Thickwall Reply with quote

I checked the head cc's another 5 times as I was hoping I got it totally wrong and they are dead on 50cc...

So onto matching the chamber shape onto the 92mm piston.

I drew up a 5mm X 5mm grid and cut them out to trace the chamber onto so I could draw it up in CAD.
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After a few goes I got it looking half ok
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I stuck the cutout shape to the cc plate so I could see the areas that needed working (These keep loading upside-down, but you get the idea):

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The chamber outline measures at 50.3mm2, so I'm calculating a 1.25mm dish depth should get me the 6cc's I need.

The thing that that I'm a little worried about is the chamber width is within 0.02mm of the edge of the piston chamfer at it's widest points.

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Anyone gone this close to the piston edge with their dishes??

I'm thinking if I get the dish cut with a radius top and bottom will this assist in any potential issues with the walls so thin?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 4:28 am    Post subject: Re: Street 2180 Thickwall Reply with quote

I don't have a spec to give you, but I agree that cutting g the dish that close to the edge would probably not be wise.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 5:12 am    Post subject: Re: Street 2180 Thickwall Reply with quote

I wouldn't cut it any closer than the inner diameter of the top ring groove.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:07 am    Post subject: Re: Street 2180 Thickwall Reply with quote

This was a 7cc dish I did in some 92's. I didn't mirror the exact shape of the chamber because I my mill is only manual. I just used a standard flycutter with a radius ground on the end. The dish does not extend into the flats of the chamber at all. I don't remember how deep it was, but it wasn't anything drastic. Maybe .050"??
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Brian
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petemart
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 5:14 am    Post subject: Re: Street 2180 Thickwall Reply with quote

Brian_e wrote:
This was a 7cc dish I did in some 92's. I didn't mirror the exact shape of the chamber because I my mill is only manual. I just used a standard flycutter with a radius ground on the end. The dish does not extend into the flats of the chamber at all. I don't remember how deep it was, but it wasn't anything drastic. Maybe .050"??
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Brian


When you say 'the flats' of the chamber do you mean the chamber was smaller than the width of the piston?
What sort of motor spec do you have and how are these holding up?

I'm thinking of offsetting the chamber shape by 1.5mm (.060") smaller and getting a radius machined top and bottom to 'blend' it all..
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:09 am    Post subject: Re: Street 2180 Thickwall Reply with quote

petemart wrote:

When you say 'the flats' of the chamber do you mean the chamber was smaller than the width of the piston?
What sort of motor spec do you have and how are these holding up?

I'm thinking of offsetting the chamber shape by 1.5mm (.060") smaller and getting a radius machined top and bottom to 'blend' it all..


Other way around. The dish in the piston was about .060" smaller than the chamber. I wanted the flats of the chamber to be as large as possible, without the piston dish overlapping them anywhere.

The engine has about 5000 miles on it, and has been perfect. It went 2600 miles in baja right out of the gate with no issues. I tore it apart after that to fix an oil leak, and the pistons looked perfect. Pretty clean around the edges do to the tight deck height.

Specs:
82x92tw
Tims s2 heads 42x37
W125 cam
9.5:1, .045" deck
5.4 H beams
1 5/8" sidewinder.

Here is the car it went into 😊
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