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36HP J Tube Question
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SixVolt
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:07 am    Post subject: 36HP J Tube Question Reply with quote

I purchased a set of 36HP heater boxes from CIP1 to restore the original stale air heater boxes on my '57 beetle. http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC%2D111%2D255%2D102
Upon removing the old straight J tubes (these had no heater boxes) I noticed the end of the replacements that connect to the muffler were not "indented" like the straight J tubes were. The picture shows what I'm talking about . The straight J tube on the left and the replacement tube is on the right. From examining this its evident the replacement will be too long for the distance between head and the muffler. I'm assuming this is a common problem?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Do veteran members recommend cutting the ends off the replacement off completely, or is it better to try to cut grooves in the ends of the replacement then bend the remaining metal to allow the extension to fit into the muffler hole? Obviously, I want to avoid an exhaust leak at the muffler/J tube connection. If I cut it off is it wise to use some compound under the clam? Any advice is appreciated.
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Snort
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:37 am    Post subject: Re: 36HP J Tube Question Reply with quote

I'm not sure what you're trying to describe.

Your photo shows a J tube with a tapered end, the replacement tube straight end, but you're asking about length and your photo doesn't really show a significant difference in length. The muffler tube is rather long and should be able to handle a minor difference in pipe length with the J tube fitting inside it.

Are you also saying that it is too large to fit into the muffler? If the diameter of the replacement tube is too large, that's a problem. You shouldn't have to cut grooves into it to make it fit. Something is not right with whatever combination of parts you're trying to put together or maybe I missed something in your description.

That whacky old J tube with the tapered end looks like something designed as a universal 40hp stale air or fresh air setup as they have different sized pipes. I've never purchased bare J tubes so this is just a guess.
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SixVolt
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:34 am    Post subject: Re: 36HP J Tube Question Reply with quote

Are you also saying that it is too large to fit into the muffler? Yes.

The replacement pipe is not tapered. Thus, it will not fit inside the muffler pipe connection. Thus, after being attached to the head it will be too long when attached to the muffler. I guess I should have said the tapered end of the old straight J tube went inside the muffler pipe and my replacement pipe is the same size as the muffler pipe so it won't go inside. I can't just bolt it up because I think my heat riser connection to the muffler will be off unless I can eliminate that extra bit of pipe. I'm just looking for the best way to do it and avoid an exhaust leak. Appreciate you taking the time to ask me to explain it better. When I ordered these two I thought it would be a straight bolt on. I guessed wrong.
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Snort
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:56 am    Post subject: Re: 36HP J Tube Question Reply with quote

Got it, so something isn't right in the size either the tube or the muffler.

How about getting a measurement on the tube size and your muffler size, I can take a look at a couple of things in my garage and we can compare notes, OK?

edit: I just measured a couple of pipes, they are coming in at about 32mm.


Last edited by Snort on Sun Dec 27, 2015 12:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Zwitterkafer
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 12:04 pm    Post subject: Re: 36HP J Tube Question Reply with quote

It should be a simple bolt on. Your muffler is probably not an OEM type 36hp unit. Have a picture of it? Is there a part number on it anywhere?
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D. Haviland
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 2:11 pm    Post subject: Re: 36HP J Tube Question Reply with quote

That tapered j-pipe isn't normal. Does your muffler have curled flange for donut gaskets or is it straight?
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SixVolt
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 3:07 pm    Post subject: Re: 36HP J Tube Question Reply with quote

Ok. I greatly appreciate all the assistance. I think this may be a case of stupidity on my part, but I'll happily share it for the benefit of the community. Here are some additional pics...

As you can see the muffler is a 36HP (Or could it be a 40 horse stale?)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here's the end of the muffler that connects to the J pipe

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


And here's the CIP1 replacement J tube heater box (w/ my added shoebox tin) that I'm trying to connect.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


It may well be that the replacement pipe fits in the 36HP muffler I just never realized it might work because of the lack of a tapered end on the replacement pipe.

So let this be a lesson to all. Check first before asking. But I guess this is all part of the learning curve. I'll have to disconnect the flapper rod, but when I do, I think the replacement pipe will fit into the muffler. (No inappropriate reference meant by any of this!)

Its just weird how these 36ers are set up. And now I think I need to find original clamps and not the 1600 stuff that was on this! (But I think I'll have to stick with what I have because of the flange)

Many thanks to all who posted. And I will report back when, and if, I get it right.
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Snort
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: 36HP J Tube Question Reply with quote

It looks like your muffler might have the donut gasket and metal ring stuck to the end of it which will definitely give some resistance to inserting the pipes. Carefully work it off the muffler side and slide it over the heater box pipe first, they can be a bit fragile.

Photo is a bit blurry, but looks like 36hp muffler due to the length of the lower pipes, 40hp stale air mufflers have shorter pipes, just like the fresh air style. The other dead giveaway on 36hp mufflers is the offset bolt holes on the heat riser flanges, 40hp and up have a symmetrical flange.
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SixVolt
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:59 pm    Post subject: Re: 36HP J Tube Question Reply with quote

The VW (Samba) community is really great. I can't say enough about how grateful I am for the advice and direction. My shortcomings to date are on display to all. (Ha Ha) I'll work on it and report back. Many thanks.
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BulliBill
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: 36HP J Tube Question Reply with quote

I'm guessing that you have a 40hp stale air style muffler and a 36hp engine. Those flared ends use the asbestos ring and clamp to secure on a 40 hp engine. The ends of the pipes on a 36hp engine muffler and heater box are straight pipes (no flare) and use a "flat" clamp (WW sells both styles of clamps, mufflers, etc.). I imagine that you can fiddle and alter stuff until it fits and works.

A few photos of the 36hp single-tip muffler and how it attaches to the "J" tubes in a 36hp heater box assembly. Both have straight end tubes (the "J" tube slips inside the muffler tube) and flat clamp:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Hope that helps a little...

Bill
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60ragtop
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: 36HP J Tube Question Reply with quote

BulliBill wrote:
The ends of the pipes on a 36hp engine muffler and heater box are straight pipes (no flare) and use a "flat" clampBill

This is not true, some 36 HP mufflers have the flair and use the ring and circle clamp.
here's a pic, out of focus(from the gallery)
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:30 pm    Post subject: Re: 36HP J Tube Question Reply with quote

36hp mufflers up to May '59 had the straight pipes. After that, the pipe ends were modified with a conical flange that used the asbestos doughnuts and matching junction clamps. "SixVolt" will probably be fine after prying those asbestos doughnuts from the muffler flange.......<suspense!>
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SixVolt
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:55 pm    Post subject: Re: 36HP J Tube Question Reply with quote

Many thanks to all for the advice and information. I finally got around to getting back on my oval project.

As noted earlier, indeed I do have a 36HP muffler with the flared ends. Thankfully, I didn't cut the pipes thinking they wouldn't line up. From the information provided I'm assuming this is a post May 1959 36HP muffler.

While I wish it was the old style I can live with it. The clamps were hard to put on because of the confined space by the shoeboxes, but I made it work. Still have a lot to get done to get this thing mobile by spring.

Here are the pics of the muffler connection.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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Bug-nut
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:36 pm    Post subject: Re: 36HP J Tube Question Reply with quote

SixVolt wrote:
Many thanks to all for the advice and information. I finally got around to getting back on my oval project.

As noted earlier, indeed I do have a 36HP muffler with the flared ends. Thankfully, I didn't cut the pipes thinking they wouldn't line up. From the information provided I'm assuming this is a post May 1959 36HP muffler.

While I wish it was the old style I can live with it. The clamps were hard to put on because of the confined space by the shoeboxes, but I made it work. Still have a lot to get done to get this thing mobile by spring.

Here are the pics of the muffler connection.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Thank man! Believe it or not im about to be doing this exact thing changing my muffler and j pipes and these pictures and information will help a lot! Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:32 pm    Post subject: Re: 36HP J Tube Question Reply with quote

SixVolt wrote:

While I wish it was the old style I can live with it. The clamps were hard to put on because of the confined space by the shoeboxes, but I made it work. Still have a lot to get done to get this thing mobile by spring.


Your shoeboxes have the cutouts to make room for these later style gaskets and clamps, so at least the muffler is matched to them. Early shoeboxes can work with later mufflers but the clamps are really jammed in tight against it and it's a major PITA. That's how my factory rebuild motor (RIP) was setup and it was always a problem.
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