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blood
Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2015
Posts: 50
Location: nashville tn
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 Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:26 pm Post subject: What markings are on Kubel wheels? |
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Can any one shed light on the subject of wheel marking or stamps on period correct kubelwagen 3x16 riveted wheels. I have read that the hubcaps were not used on later cars. do these wheels have hubcap clips or even drillings to accommodate clips? Are there date codes as in later manufacturing? What company's made these wheels KPZ, Lammertz or? Any VW logos? Sure would help to have some good information.
Thank you
David |
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SplitPersonality
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Joined: September 26, 2004
Posts: 630
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:04 am Post subject: Re: What markings are on Kubel wheels? |
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My experience:
- Due to material shortages, some late-war-model Kubels were supplied without hubcaps.
- There are Kubel-wheels with no holes for hubcap-clips
- All Kubel wheels are riveted and made by Kronprinz / KPZ
- No kubel wheels have any markings in between the bolt holes, like later wheels have
- Kubel wheels are marked clearly at "the bottom" of the rim in the section where the tyres mount... and the markeings are stamped clearly as follows:
KRONPRINZ 3,00 x 16 @ 5 43
Where the "@" is a KDF cogwheel VW logo
And - 5 43 in this case means mfg during May 1943
On this picture you can see the cogwheel logo and the numbers as above on each side of it. All of my pre-47 wheels are marked like this.
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mikeandkirsti
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Joined: June 16, 2009
Posts: 284
Location: EU
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 6:21 am Post subject: Re: What markings are on Kubel wheels? |
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| SplitPersonality wrote: |
My experience:
- Due to material shortages, some late-war-model Kubels were supplied without hubcaps.
- I have never seen a wheel with NO holes for the hubcap clips
- All Kubel wheels are riveted and made by Kronprinz / KPZ
- No kubel wheels have any markings in between the bolt holes, like later wheels have
- Kubel wheels are marked clearly at "the bottom" of the rim in the section where the tyres mount... and the markeings are stamped clearly as follows:
KRONPRINZ 3,00 x 16 @ 5 43
Where the "@" is a KDF cogwheel VW logo
And - 5 43 in this case means mfg during May 1943
On this picture you can see the cogwheel logo and the numbers as above on each side of it. All of my pre-47 wheels are marked like this.
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Mostly correct BUT:
- No Kübelwagen wheels had hubcap clips or holes from early 1943 on; many times holes have been added but originally there were no holes
- marking are almost the same as post war on the front (size 3.00DX16 and bolt pattern marking) but the KPZ logo is larger see pic of an original 6-44 stamped KdF wheel with no holes and has markings on front:
dated 6-44:
KdF: logo and size 3.00DX16
- wheels were made by KPZ, Hering and Lemmerz up to 1942, however later wheels all seem to be KPZ
- here is a 1/41 stamped KdF Lemmerz wheel, with holes as it is prior to 43:
Here is a 10/40 stamped KdF Hering, with clip holes:
and with KdF logo on front:
Date on fron too 10/1940
The 1940 wheel is currently on a 1940 Kübel and the 1941 wheel is on a 1941 KdF Beetle Type 60. The 6/44 Kübel wheel is on my 1945 Kübel.
Important is to know that 3.25 or 3.50DX16 wheels are NOT VW, they are Opel wheels made by KPZ. Opel wheels 3.00DX16 were also made by KPZ and mounted on the Olympia which was copied as the Moskvits 401 in the Soviet Union and the same wheel was made there with same machines and there are lots floating around in Eastern Europe. You could use these wheels in a Kübel, they look the same but all have holes for hubcap clips and clips are different from VW if present. Most importantly, a VW hubcap will not fit an Opel/Moskvits wheel, the opening is smaller, good way to test a rim. Also, the lug bolt stamping is different in an Opel/Moskvits rim, larger and deeper.
Original Kübelwagen rims are very difficult to find in usable condition. You can use post war 3.00DX16 riveted KPZ rims if you weld the hubcap clip holes shut for 1943 and later. KPZ rims made up to 1950 even have the KdF logo inside the rim as they did not bother to change that since it did not show. However, after 1950 there is an intendation where the clip is mounted. This needs to ground flat to look correct, very difficult to ground as there is limited space, but is can be done.
Also important to realize that most all wheels were painted dark grey (Wehrmacht Schwarzgrau) until the very end in 1945 and not yellow (Dunkelgelb). There is evidence that some wheels in mid 1943 actually were yellow and Afrika Korps did paint whole vehicle Afrika Korps yellow including wheels but regular production Kübels always had grey wheels unlike many restored cars. |
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Mike Sal
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Joined: May 28, 2014
Posts: 195
Location: Southern Illinois
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:40 am Post subject: Re: What markings are on Kubel wheels? |
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Do you mind if I ask about the statement that most all Kubelwagen production used grey wheels? Were the wheels supplied to the factory already painted, or were they painted just before the tires were mounted?
thanks,
Mike Sal |
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mikeandkirsti
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Joined: June 16, 2009
Posts: 284
Location: EU
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:24 pm Post subject: Re: What markings are on Kubel wheels? |
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| Mike Sal wrote: |
Do you mind if I ask about the statement that most all Kubelwagen production used grey wheels? Were the wheels supplied to the factory already painted, or were they painted just before the tires were mounted?
thanks,
Mike Sal |
They were supplied from Kronprinz and the other manufacturers already painted so they did not follow the paint scheme at the factory. Even though the basic color of Wehrmacht vehicles was changed to Dunkelgelb (Dark Yellow) in March 1943 it only meant that basic color scheme of the vehicle was gradually changed after paint supply was exhausted. This did not mean that each and every part needed to be yellow. The pan and axles remained grey until around mid 1944 although body was yellow from the spring of 1943.
Here is a late 1944 Kübelwagen. Typically the parts painted at the VW plant including brake drums are yellow but all wheels are grey. |
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Bruce
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Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17285
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: What markings are on Kubel wheels? |
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[quote="mikeandkirsti"]
| SplitPersonality wrote: |
Also important to realize that most all wheels were painted dark grey (Wehrmacht Schwarzgrau) until the very end in 1945 and not yellow (Dunkelgelb). There is evidence that some wheels in mid 1943 actually were yellow and Afrika Korps did paint whole vehicle Afrika Korps yellow including wheels but regular production Kübels always had grey wheels unlike many restored cars. |
There are far too many wartime photos showing light coloured (yellow) wheels for you to make that claim.
_________________
| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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mikeandkirsti
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Joined: June 16, 2009
Posts: 284
Location: EU
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: What markings are on Kubel wheels? |
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[quote="Bruce"]
| mikeandkirsti wrote: |
| SplitPersonality wrote: |
Also important to realize that most all wheels were painted dark grey (Wehrmacht Schwarzgrau) until the very end in 1945 and not yellow (Dunkelgelb). There is evidence that some wheels in mid 1943 actually were yellow and Afrika Korps did paint whole vehicle Afrika Korps yellow including wheels but regular production Kübels always had grey wheels unlike many restored cars. |
There are far too many wartime photos showing light coloured (yellow) wheels for you to make that claim. |
In fact there are very few or no pictures of factory new cars with verified yellow wheels. Many times wheels with dried road dirt appear light in B/W photos like here:
Dirt makes wheels look yellow although you can tell from the spare tire that wheels are grey.
This color photo shows how dirt makes wheels look light although they are grey:
There is some evidence that wheels were repainted yellow at field workshops. All pictures of factory new vehicles have grey wheels. Also surviving wheels are grey.
In mid 1943 some pictures of new vehicles with yellow wheels exist. This is an early 1943 Kübel with yellow wheels:
If you look at the picture the brake drums are also yellow which indicates either a repaint in a field workshop or an Afrika Korps vehicle as all 1943 Kübels came form the factory with grey brake drums.
I have had about 20 wheels form all three manufacturers dated 10-1940 to 11-1944 and they all were originally grey.
This is not a personal opinion or claim, this question has been extensively debated for years on forums like www.vw166.com and there is wide consensus that wheels were grey. Same applies to Schwimmwagen wheels, both narrow and wide all the way up to August 1944 when the last Schwimmwagens were built. Vehicles have been restored incorrectly for decades which has brought about the misconception, same applies to the KdF hubcaps and yellow chassis. A late 1943 Kübelwagen with hubcaps, yellow pan and yellow wheels could not be more incorrect. |
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Mike Sal
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Joined: May 28, 2014
Posts: 195
Location: Southern Illinois
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: What markings are on Kubel wheels? |
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This is very interesting. I am re-working a reproduction Kubelwagen and painted the chassis grey and the body yellow. I am targeting an early 1943 look.
I assumed when the change to yellow was mandated, all of the sub-suppliers would have been notified at the same time and they could have switched colors much faster than the VW factory (due to excess inventory of paint.....I wonder who's "friend of the party" made lots of money selling paint?). This would mean parts, such as wheels, supplied to VW would have been yellow much sooner.
Mike Sal |
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blood
Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2015
Posts: 50
Location: nashville tn
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: What markings are on Kubel wheels? |
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| Thank you to all that replied, info was most helpful. the current wheels on my 44 type 82 are not to my liking (rewelds) and I have just received a set of five older wheels from CZ that were sold to me as Opel wheels. Reasonable value. No markings on outside face. I will weld up the rivet holes and also the valve stem holes as they do not line up with a lug bolt hole as VW wheels do. I will redrill the valve stem hole and the corresponding drain hole opposite the valve stem hole so they will look proper and line up correctly on the spare mount. I looked for a while and could not find correct original wheels. |
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mikeandkirsti
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Joined: June 16, 2009
Posts: 284
Location: EU
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:25 pm Post subject: Re: What markings are on Kubel wheels? |
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| Mike Sal wrote: |
This is very interesting. I am re-working a reproduction Kubelwagen and painted the chassis grey and the body yellow. I am targeting an early 1943 look.
I assumed when the change to yellow was mandated, all of the sub-suppliers would have been notified at the same time and they could have switched colors much faster than the VW factory (due to excess inventory of paint.....I wonder who's "friend of the party" made lots of money selling paint?). This would mean parts, such as wheels, supplied to VW would have been yellow much sooner.
Mike Sal |
On the contrary, secondary parts like wheels were continued to be painted grey to save the huge amounts of paint in stock at the time. Many other accessory items continued to be painted grey for a very long time. VW exhausted the grey paint stocks only in late 1944 and pans were painted grey until mid 1944. Gradually grey pans started getting yellow axles in about July 1944 and the whole car was yellow in September/October 1944. Even then smaller parts could be grey. My 1945 Kübel has original paint on gear shift and hand brake lever and they are still grey.
Paint your pan, axles and wheels grey to get an early 1943 look. |
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mikeandkirsti
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Joined: June 16, 2009
Posts: 284
Location: EU
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| Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:27 pm Post subject: Re: What markings are on Kubel wheels? |
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| blood wrote: |
| Thank you to all that replied, info was most helpful. the current wheels on my 44 type 82 are not to my liking (rewelds) and I have just received a set of five older wheels from CZ that were sold to me as Opel wheels. Reasonable value. No markings on outside face. I will weld up the rivet holes and also the valve stem holes as they do not line up with a lug bolt hole as VW wheels do. I will redrill the valve stem hole and the corresponding drain hole opposite the valve stem hole so they will look proper and line up correctly on the spare mount. I looked for a while and could not find correct original wheels. |
What you have are Moskvits wheels, they have no markings, very common use in CZ- They are as good as Opel however and you are better off without markings as Opel marking are wrong. With the modifications you mention they will fool most people. Good luck with the project. |
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