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blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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 Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:40 am Post subject: ? on IRS 73 SB axle bearings. |
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I had the right side on my car jacked up the other day and noticed if I grab the rear tire I can rock it a bit side to side and grabbing the tire top and bottom the same movement . Maybe 1/8" at the outer edge of the tire . It's similar to a loose adjustment on a front wheel bearing.
I know the outer is a roller bearing , inner is a ball bearing.
I can only assume one or both bearings have play from wear . Driving it I hear no bearing noise like a rough ball or roller.
I assume there should be no play is this correct?
Also in the Haynes book it shows this work done on the car , not removing the control arm.
Any one done this and if so what do I need without special tools?
I haven't checked the drivers side and have no idea how long this play has been there . Bentley does not have any info on play as far as measurements . At some point someone worked on the right side because it had a new cotter pin . All I could find was repacking the bearings at a certain millage. I have never done this.
I hope someone has done this and has some pointers. |
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Bobnotch
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Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22413
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: ? on IRS 73 SB axle bearings. |
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| blues90 wrote: |
Also in the Haynes book it shows this work done on the car , not removing the control arm.
Any one done this and if so what do I need without special tools?
I hope someone has done this and has some pointers. |
I've done this before in a parking lot before. You need a good set of snap ring pliers, a soft punch (I used a piece of 1" aluminum rod), an XZN socket (for the CV bolts), a 36mm socket, and some other basic metric hand tools.
You have to remove the drum and hub, then the bearing cover, then the axle stub, before you can get to the bearings. Remove the inner seal, then the snap ring, so you can remove the inner bearing and spacer. Then from behind, use the soft punch to remove the outer bearing. Grease up the new bearings and seal lips, and reinstall in reverse assembly.
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
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| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: ? on IRS 73 SB axle bearings. |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| blues90 wrote: |
Also in the Haynes book it shows this work done on the car , not removing the control arm.
Any one done this and if so what do I need without special tools?
I hope someone has done this and has some pointers. |
I've done this before in a parking lot before. You need a good set of snap ring pliers, a soft punch (I used a piece of 1" aluminum rod), an XZN socket (for the CV bolts), a 36mm socket, and some other basic metric hand tools.
You have to remove the drum and hub, then the bearing cover, then the axle stub, before you can get to the bearings. Remove the inner seal, then the snap ring, so you can remove the inner bearing and spacer. Then from behind, use the soft punch to remove the outer bearing. Grease up the new bearings and seal lips, and reinstall in reverse assembly. |
I have everything except the snap ring pliers . I may have a 36 MM socket and have a 1/2" breaker bar but no torque wrench yet read one can stand on the breaker bar to get it tight enough depending on my weight 150 lb's and how far out I stand on the bar . Looks like I do not need to remove the backing plate .
I have read that since the trailing arm housing is softer metal than the bearings that the housing can get pounded out so the roller outer race my fit loose. I can see this with off road but not normal driving.
I'm not sure if there should be any play at all or a little. I would think that if a bearing was worn it would make noise , I don't hear noise at all. Also read if the nut is not tight this could cause this.
I checked both sides and they are the same. What I feel is a slight bit of in/out play pulling and pushing on the wheel about .010" to .015" I have nothing to measure this. I checked both sides and both have no side to side play 3 O'clock to 9 and rotated the wheel 90 degrees and 189 degrees no change. Both side only have play up and down and feel the same and I have no way to measure this. I spin the wheels and hear or feel nothing don't hear it while driving or on corners.
I have no idea why there is just up/down play or should I say pull the bottom of the tire out as I push the top in .
Any ideas? I edited here to add so far the only play I feel is with a bar under either tire , the weight of the wheels are down and I lift up on the bar and it moves up , guessing about 1/8" . |
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blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:22 pm Post subject: Re: ? on IRS 73 SB axle bearings. |
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| Anyone? |
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Multi69s
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Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 5364
Location: Lefty, CA
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blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: ? on IRS 73 SB axle bearings. |
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| Multi69s wrote: |
| Even on road only cars, the trailing arm bearing areas do stretch over time. Start by pulling of the drum and hub, then put a pipe on the stub axle. have someone move it around, while you watch for movement between the outer bearing race and the trailing arm. Then lets go from there |
I need to get a 36mm socket before I can get the hubs off. And the large C clip pliers . I can't afford these right now. |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22413
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: ? on IRS 73 SB axle bearings. |
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Personally, I think you're looking to fix something that's not broken. From what I understand (what you had typed above), you're seeing normal wear. Think about it a minute, you're moving the entire wheel and assembly with a bar, to check for bearing slack, that's supposed to be there (or the bearing would burn up).
You're not hearing any noise from that area are you?
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:18 pm Post subject: Re: ? on IRS 73 SB axle bearings. |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
Personally, I think you're looking to fix something that's not broken. From what I understand (what you had typed above), you're seeing normal wear. Think about it a minute, you're moving the entire wheel and assembly with a bar, to check for bearing slack, that's supposed to be there (or the bearing would burn up).
You're not hearing any noise from that area are you? |
Yes you have that right Bob. I look at it this way. As you know roller bearings and ball bearings need built in slack like you said Bob.
To allow for expansion and room for grease, certainly with grease they run cooler due to the reduced friction as well as wear. With just that in mind I agree with repacking the bearings to a degree . That degree is assuming the seals don't leak and as grease becomes old it dries and becomes hardened yet only if the thin oil base of this grease escapes or evaporates . I does depend IMHO what type of grease it is. Some like the CV joints seems to always be slippery as it's a high pressure molly based grease if I recall the proper term. I have no idea what VW used at the time yet for as long as my bearings have been in there since I've had this car I would assume it's similar.
I can see the possibility of a worn housing if the bearing froze and spun on the outer race . This you would hear bearing noise well before failure. Or if the nut came loose I think you would hear this on turns before major damage was done.
I just can't see it from weight of the car . I may be wrong , there are all sorts of ways one can look at this. With the bearings built in play the actual weight of the car is resting at the top of the roller for the most part , the bearing is always turning . I would think if there were no play at all between the roller and ball the grease would soon be forced out on both sides of the ball killing it and the first indication of noise and wear would be the ball bearing., lessor to the roller because of more surface contact with the sides of the large roller race. Either way they would not live long.
I have seen ball bearings that a noise came and went and this is because the balls rotate in their cage and the one rough spot rides in the cage. A roller would not do this.
With all this said I would feel better with fresh grease in there and new seals . I don't expect to find a worn housing or bad bearing. I would look at each roller and ball and if there were no blue color or rough spots they would go back in.
In all the years I've owned this car I never noticed the play. I didn't look for it because I didn't hear any noise and because I only turn the rear wheels to adjust the brakes, they always adjusted fine and the shoes wore even . I had the one side up to get at the thermostat and had the E brake off and the left front wheel chocked both F&R and had it out of park , grabbed the wheel to brace myself and it spun , I heard something and tried to move the wheel to see what it might be and started to check things I never bothered with before. It was not because I heard a bearing noise driving down the road. I have no doubt it's been like this for decades.
It's always had a slight diff whine at highway speeds only around 60 , as soon as I back off the gas a bit into coast it stops , it has never gotten worse or changed one bit . I checked the diff oil level and it was full and left it at that.
I'll admit lately I've been finding a few things like door latches and engine oil leaks and some other small issues which in an odd way make me feel I missed this and it could have broke so I began to focus a bit to close on every single thing. I never used to do this.
A short story. I recall one day years ago I pulled into a gas station when this car still had it's stock exhaust . I was working on this car at work for something . I knew the one rubber short boot on the right side that connects the elbow from the cooling fan had a small gap . I saw smoke when I turned off the engine coming out of the right defroster so I pulled away from the pump to open the lid saw a shop rag laying on the right side of the tin top of the muffler , before I could say stop the attendant there shot the engine with fire extinguisher . One other time I opened the engine lid in the morning and saw a small stream of fuel spraying out of the fuel line across the engine top and replaced it. Got all new lines. Once I opened the garage to find the floor covered in fuel rolled it out saw the leak under the tank , drove to work and changed them. Certainly there are things you really need to check out they were those German cloth covered hoses that I didn't like but was told that's all you can use. Never used them again for fuel. Could have burned my car to the ground , I was lucky. I didn't go checking everything and ponder and worry.
This is the only FI car I've owned . It has more rubber fuel hoses than anything I saw before many right there on the engine. These cars need to be looked at often for certain known issues . Most here already know this. |
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