Had/Was considering buying this Ghia...thoughts? Slings?

[DadaCheese]

Greetings,

Split-window bus Samba Member here; visiting your fine forum.

Wife and I chanced upon something that seemed like it could be a good deal on a Convertible 1970 Ghia, and I went to take a look at it today.

I'm here mainly to get comments and thoughts from the experts (that's you!), and/or humorous (but not mean-spirited) comments about what you think this Ghia is really worth. ...or as a major project, what costs you imagine associated with it?

Some facts:

Not the original color (had been blue; yellow paint job covered only the visible).
Engine (1600 Dual-port, I believe) currently not working (least of this Ghia's trouble).
Likely hasn't been driven/working for at least 5 years.
Has a "salvage" registration, supposedly because the current owner would have had to pay nine-year's back registration after he got it from previous owners, but instead managed to get a junk yard friend to help give it a salvage title instead (yep; that's the story).
Supposedly has never been in an accident. Lack of crinkled metal seems to support this. The nose does look good overall.
Someone took the original horn out and placed a two-tone air horn in (leaving the front boot kind of "open"). Not a big problem; just an example of wonkiness.
Bondo? You betcha! Look at those rockers. How extensive? Can't tell.
Current owner has never had the top together/functioning, though they did buy the fabric to fix it years ago. Supposedly has window to go with the top.
Floor pans? Bad pencil-sized holes through on the passenger-side floor. Could likely get a few fingers up into the cracks and pull a chunk to two off, or at least bend what is still there.
Transmission supposedly rebuilt within the last 10+ years.
Owner has a new carpet kit (again; LEAST of this Ghia's problems!).
The Headlight buckets (from behind) look ok.
Didn't take the beauty rings off the headlights, but that part appears OK, but naturally could be plenty of bondo too... It seems that the front was actually one of the best parts, I would say.
I believe an extra piece of metal was placed down in the battery area (perhaps when it was painted yellow)?
Naturally the interior is falling apart from weather and exposure. It's been under a tarp (outside) for several years.
Doubt the emergency brake cables are working, that's mechanical, an example of something I can fix myself...

Yes, I get that if I want a major project car, and had time, and money and know-how this one could shine again. However, I am/was hoping to find a Ghia (perferably a convertable) at a reasonable price that I could get back onto the road fairly quickly and that my wife could enjoy. I kind of doubt that is that car... or? Your thoughts?

I'm not a novice to air-cooled VWs, I AM a novice to Ghias, and I have been cramming, reading up in the forums, before I went to look at this one. I understand the common and basic inherent challenges of Ghias.

I have a great many additional photos (many of the typical problem areas), but these below are an overview.

So; my questions ~
Regardless of what I know to be the asking price for this SALVAGE-registered Ghia, what do YOU think of it?
What kind of price-tag do you see to get it road-worthy and looking OK (road safe, top together again, but not necessarily pretty to look at)?
I am NOT a person who'll being doing a pan-off restoration (and no money to pay someone to do it; I'm still working on my '67 Westfalia), and I have NO welding skills (just some engine and general maintenance skills, not too much else).

...and I guess a last question is that if you met someone that had this Ghia, how much would you offer for it, knowing what you do know of it? I don't mean what you want to pay, I mean what do you consider fair?
We were hoping to get something that we could end up driving, not "profit" off of, and we understand that a salvage registration makes it never able to live up to a full "value".
Is it worth fixing to DRIVE, and you estimate(s) of how much to get it to that point?

My dream had been that I pay the asking price and that after perhaps another 3 or 4 thousand it'd be safely enjoyed often on the road, but after seeing it, that feels much more like fantasy.

Friendly thoughts and comments and hilarity appreciated. I'm interested to hear what you have to say.

_________________
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Dada as in dadaism.
Cheese as in the stuff I love to eat.

[motorhead364]

As I have learned with these cars, you can get a motor running fix the wiring and drive the snot out of one. (No person experience yet but lots of reading and looking). As I assemble my car I see how easy and simple these things are. The top will be expensive but it looks to all be there so that helps in the $$ dept. rockers look rough. They are pretty important on verts I hear. Just a quick scan of the pics. $1500-2000 as is. If you think it could be made to run. $2500 tops.

Verts are more rare but it's a later car. Could be a fun driver to tinker with. Chrome looks usable and bumpers are there. That's good.
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63 ghia coupe

[c21darrel]

She is pretty rough. The rockers are a worry. Until you tear into them you do not know just how bad. Some the stiffeners in the vert frame are in the rockers. Generally speaking if the rockers and stiffeners are rusted you are really looking at pan off welding repairs...may as well do the pans since they are rusted too. The top needs sandblasting paint then reassemble, pricey. Mechanicals are usually the most inexpensive parts so you still need to go thru the brakes and drivetrain. Missing tin on the engine, what else will it need? I dont think its a car where you buy it, put $2500 into it and you have a driver. From my seat it looks like it needs, hmm...everything. This thing can definitely be sorted and brought back to life, it wont happen quick or inexpensively. Try to score that GT exhaust
Grab a chunk of your favorite cheese, a beer and search for a better candidate. Dada!
_________________
GhiaBuild
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=481184
1967 DC build
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[kiwighia68]

I've just completed the restoration of a '68 Ghia coupé that started off in way better condition that the one you have there, and the cost exceeded $30k easily, not counting the motor, suspension and brakes.

Walk away.
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Festina lente - hasten slowly
1968 Ghia named Emiko
Resto completed Dec 2015

[Karly]

[DadaCheese]

.
Thanks EVERYONE for the level-headed expert advice:

[kman]

It's better than the one I started with.

I have spent endless hours fixing mine, though not near as much money as some.

Unless you have all the tools and skills, buy something done.

[WooleyNelson]

you are gonna have that 3 to 4 K you want use on it wrapped up in a new top unless you do it yourself.

I love verts (have one) but that one is just as rough as mine, maybe rougher, and I figure 12 to 20k to get mine presentable.

Hope I didn't burst your bubble!

[rcooled]

If you're looking for a decent Ghia convertible at a reasonable price, get hold of this guy. His name is Steve, and his Samba screen name is saveallghias. He's not far from you...just down in Los Gatos (near San Jose), and he usually has at least a couple for sale at any one time. If he doesn't happen to have exactly what you're looking for, he can probably find it for you.

You wouldn't even come close to bringing that yellow 'vert up to the condition of this '64 for the money he's asking.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1833541
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'63 Ragtop (current)
'65 Ghia coupe (totaled)
'67 Ghia convertible (current)
'69.5 Ghia convertible and
'62, '63, '65, '69 Bugs (all long gone)

[sputnick60]

[John Moxon]

[c21darrel]

That red vert looks like a pretty nice car. If I were the seller the last thing I would advertise (props to him for disclosing) is the GEX motor.
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[DadaCheese]

Again, great advice from everyone.

The basic take-away advice for us, not wanting to do a major project car, seems to be: Find as "complete" and working of a Ghia that for you is both appealing and within a price range you can afford, and go from there. The prices are only going to climb over time. 

With this in mind, we've been looking.
Plus, my wife also feels she'd enjoy a coup as long as she likes it/it appeals to her.
This three-day weekend we are driving a great distance to look at, and possibly buy, a 1971 coup.
It is registered, drivable, and has recently had a great many (albeit not too expensive) things done for/to it: had been lowered but is now at stock height, new tires, battery, clutch/plate, rubber all around.

It is "painted recently" (seems to be a correct VW color for the year), so of course it looks good in the photos. Has bumpers, and until we see it in person, may or may not have not noticeable rust in problem areas, remains to be seen..
It has a non-stock fast engine, a dual-carb 1903 cc.

Concerns/Questions:

If a Ghia has been painted "recently", besides bringing a magnetic paint-depth stick (to look for evidence of bondo and filler), how can I tell if the rockers are any good?
A concerning detail is that there's "no heater", the man who currently has this car, who bought it from someone and has done the recent fix-up work (and does a lot with Ghias, but also assuredly hopes to make some profit), says that it doesn't have heater boxes ("J-tubes" I assume).
Do you suppose that is due to having the 1903cc engine, or is it more of a tell-tale sign that the rockers are/were shot and thus no chance for the heater to work?
So again; beyond my magnet, and visual inspection, how can I evaluate the rockers if the paint is new enough not to be bubbling?

For what we've seen (so far only by pictures), we're willing to buy at the price asked, but I also told my wife that even if it is drivable now, if the rockers are shot, then (when that becomes evident down the road) we have to re-evaluate. Can she can get a good, let's say five years before it becomes a money-pit project car if she wants to keep it going?

Reading the forum, it seems that ALL Ghias do, or will, have rocker problems, so what's the magic $ to usability ratio if you hope to DRIVE the car instead of restore it?

I realize a lot of this rambling and musing is hypothetical and determinant upon individuals.

One last question before we take a look at this Ghia this weekend. The current owner/fixit guy said there there is a "soft spot" under and slightly behind the passenger's seat (ie rust, pan problems, I should think, will have to see)... my question is whether floor problems are "pan off" repairs, or can a good shop cut that out and replace it if the rest of the pan is in decent shape? If yes, what kind of insane dollar amount would that kind of repair be (in a shop)?

Thanks for letting me go on and on... nervous and excited to go look at this '71, but need/want to stay grounded and realistic, as it is a chunk of change that we shouldn't really, really spend, but we do love air-cooled.
_________________
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Dada as in dadaism.
Cheese as in the stuff I love to eat.

[c21darrel]

[DadaCheese]

[c21darrel]

Its dual port AND dual carb.
Kadron motor, single throat dual carbs.
For heat on that you would need a shroud with outlets too.

[NOVA Airhead]

Have you looked at The Buyer's Guide Sticky?

That car has lots of issues but you know what you are starting with.

I am on my third Ghia vert in the last 11 years. I have found it difficult to find good solid cars. The cars I have had have required me to fix crappy work done by a PO. I have looked at cars that were not cheap and have seen plenty of problems with those as well.

A few years ago I decided to look at a project that was in similar condition to your car but was complete. I now have a very nice driver that I know is a good car.

You will have to spend money to get to that point but if you look around and are also willing to learn you can get the car done at a reasonable price. I would say at this point I am at break even with what I spent and what the car would sell for.

In addition you will learn a lot and have fun.

Another tip for determining the condition of heater channels. Pull the heater vents and look inside with a light and a mirror on an articulated arm.

Good Luck!
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Ghia Owner Emeritus

[rcooled]

[DadaCheese]

First off, I want to thank everyone for their input, but also specifically:

c21darrel
NOVA Airhead
rcooled

...since those last bits of advice (that we read while on the road), also helped a lot as we examined the Ghia.

Right or wrong, good deal or a lousy one, we did buy the 1971 Ghia.

The price we negotiated was such that I could overlook a lot of what I perceive as problems or challenges, and again, we really weighed the idea of this Ghia being something that my wife can drive, versus getting right into a massive restore project.

Needless to say, my wife (who will be the primary driver of the Ghia) loves it.

Challenges right off the bat will be some electrical problems (I've rewired my '67 bus, so I am hoping those skills will come in handy), I'd like to get it keyed to one key again (and for all the lock mechanisms to work properly), and I will start scheming to see about getting the engine back to stock over time and hooked up with heater boxes again...

The rockers, as far as I can tell with my inexperienced eye are in pretty good shape. The floor pan is worse off (under the passenger's seat), but not nearly as bad as with other Ghias we have looked at.

Those things aside, it drives great and we drove it the 608 miles home. If we weren't tired, we could have done that non-stop, but we stayed at a motel half-way back to the Bay Area of California.
The whole trip for us over President's Day weekend, was a total of 1,404 miles (we even made a side-trip to visit friends in Eugene), 608 miles of which we were both driving.
Once we had bought the Ghia, we'd change cars about every two hours.

This 1971 Ghia is NOT entirely stock (the engine in particular, but I also see where some parts were swapped from other Ghias), I am not even sure (yet) what its original color was (the foil indicator is long since gone, and I haven't opened up the interior of the doors yet). It is, however, mostly complete. The person we bought it from had it painted a correct VW willow green, but the paint job is far from perfect.
Again; did I mention my wife loves it?

So, for now, for us, and for the price, it was the right choice, and it is enough of a project that we can enjoy working on it together.

My wife will eventually have a profile on TheSamba, and then you can see/read about what we're attempting to do, and get all our newbie Ghia questions then too.

Thanks everyone for your expert advice, encouragement and knowledge!

_________________
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Dada as in dadaism.
Cheese as in the stuff I love to eat.

[c21darrel]

It was someone smart who said..."There is one born every minute"...meaning...a new ghia owner. Congrats, looks like you are already enjoying it.
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