Demand on copper rings for 24,5 PS engines???

[pastellgreen]

Hello,

as you know from the industrial-engine-thread, I am rebuilding an original engine for a '50 split.
Now, I want to reinstall the pistons and cylinders, but it seems to me, as if the copper rings from three gasket sets I have bought are to big in diameter:

The cylinders outside diameter is 82mm, the copper rings inside diameter is at least 84mm.
From my '61 34 PS engine, I know the rings should sit tight around the cylinders for getting pressed into the bevels of the cylinder head.

Am I wrong? Please answer quick, as I want to continue the work, thanks in advance!

[virtanen]

Should be tight, your copper rings are for 77 mm cylinders (30hp).
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Mika
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[pastellgreen]

Hello everybody,

now, I have contact to the company that produces these rings. They are able to produce them for me in the right sizes for our 24,5 PS engines.

Is there any kind of demand?

[splitjunkie]

I would say there should be. What kind of pricing are you talking about?
_________________
Chris

You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld

[Porsche904]

would take at least 8 if price is reasonable

[pastellgreen]

A set of 4 should not get far over 20 - 30 Euro. And if you see that there are no ones on the market, I think it is not too much. How often do you do an engine revision? An when you do it, you should do it the original, right way with the best material.
For me, the efectivity of these copper rings is evident, since I had an engine leaking between cylinder and head and I had very extensive exhausts in the cabin. After renewing them it was no theme any longer.
I also think about offering real 24,5 PS gasket sets that are really complete. Mostly some gaskets are missing or not fitting and the dilemma with the copper rings.
Next week I will get original copper rings that will be shipped to the producer for taking measurements and talking about pricing.
This producer delivers VW also today and is the german manufacturer of the copper rings for 30 and 34 PS engines for a long time, so he really knows what to do.

Can somebody tell me, how thick should be the paper for gaskets between cylinder and case? And the paper for gaskets between oilpumpcover and pump?

[blood]

This topic needs to be expanded to include details on all early model gasket sets. I am currently collecting parts to do a 1943 engine and all the proper stuff holds great interest for me. The hardest item seems to be p&c sets. If I can find a good set I would also need a set of copper cylinder to head rings. Is there enough demand for a manufacturer to produce a run of 75 mm piston and cylinder sets? How many would need to be sold? If 77mm sets are costing 300.00 dollars at what price could a manufacturer afford to produce them in the 75 mm size, maybe 600.00? I would love to have a set at a price somewhere in that neighborhood, maybe even more. I also have a question about pushrod tubes to case seals, my block does not have a concave opening for them but rather a flat faced hole. What kind of seal do I use? Is it prudent to countersink the main bearing saddles to accommodate orings as later engine have? Does the timing gear section of the case on these early engine have a drain back hole bored into the lower wall to allow all the oil to be removed during an oil change? As far as the paper cylinder base gasket I cannot imagine that any case that old would not require some clean up of the spigot creating a need to use copper base gasket in a variety of thicknesses to bring the deck height back to spec.
David

[DDub]

Blood, those copper base gaskets you speak of could easily and cheaply be water jet cut from a sheet.

[pastellgreen]

blood, in suisse, there are NOS p&c sets out there for 1500/2000 Chf, I know at least two announces.

Last days I had a call of the manufacturer of the copper crushrings. So he confirmed that they can make these. Depending on the unknown demand of these rings, we were talking about not to make a stamping tool for 2000 Euro, instead making them in another way on a turnmachine for a little series of 100 pcs first. Each piece will be a little more expensive but the risk for giving so much money for a real tool is too high for me. If these rings will sell properly, we can think of making a tool. Having this scenario would be the best, not only for my personal success but for beeing able to offer these rings also in future.

The problem is, here in Germany we have some real experts in their special field, but they are all unable to care for secondary growth. When they stop their work, there is nobody else doing that in the right quality in future. I think of experts doing revisions on the old engines, crashboxes, and so on.

I am in the position to be out of work since a half year due to a family-based moving and wanting to make something senseful and good for the scene and also for having a job. But it is impossible for me, sticking together with one of these specialists as they want to stay allone. They only want the best for themselves, don't care about the scenerys' future.

Composing real good gasket sets are only the beginning for me know, beginning an own buisness. I will be back if I have prices. The good thing is, this company could also support me in composing the whole gasket set with all crush gaskets, paper and rubber/silicone gaskets.

Kaefer-nostalgie offers a 24,5 PS gasket set. I have contacted them for telling me, what dimensions are their crushrings, but they did not measure it till today. Can somone tell something about these sets? Are they good, or are they nothing but the same as these Brasilian 36hp gasket sets??

[usariemen]

I got these two sets today.
They are not just pure copper.
These are kind of folded around a sort of asbestos filling?

_________________
Master of my domain!

[splitjunkie]

That has always been my assumption that the filling is white asbestos. All of the copper and aluminum crush rings on VW engines are like this. Only the strainer cover nut washers are solid copper.
_________________
Chris

You know, a lot of these scratches will buff right out... Jerry Seinfeld

[pastellgreen]

Yes, it is correct. These rings are so called "Fülldichtringe", filled copper rings. They were once filled with asbest, today they use another material. The rings I will offer in future are made the same way, of course.
After the military swap meet, Jacek and Thomasz came over on their way back to Poland and fetched some 16' rims. So I asked Thomasz, what they use for rings. He told me that they produce them by themselves for their own engine restorations. But he didn't know, that these rings were filled!
As I see that even these experts don't have original rings at hand, there is a demand. I will do my best.
In meanwhile, somebody gave me an original 24,5 PS gasket set from VW with all paper gaskets, also these between cylinder and case, oilpump etc. So it is now possible to take the measurements and quality from these original paper gaskets for reproducing. I hope, it won't get too long and we have a really complete gasket set for 24,5 PS engines on the market.

[johan81]

Really nice idea.
Do you know how much they will cost?
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[Bengt H]

I have never realy understod the purpose of these cruchrings... if you get a blowby between the head and cylinder they dont stand the force of the gases..
I have not used them on any engine in the last 15 years, I think its better to have all the preassure from the torqed down head to the edge of the cylinders than to spread it to the crushrings also.

Good idea to reproduse the rest of the gaskets. Good luck

[pastellgreen]

Today I got a call from the manufacturer, they have found the original tools for the right copper rings! They have bought a whole package of tools from the original supplier from VW, still using the tools for 36hp but never used these for 24,5hp.

Actually, I didn't intend to discuss the reasonability of these rings here. Many people use them, some don't. I myself have made very good experiences with these rings (written above), and I'm using them on engines for two daily drivers. There are reasons for using them, as VW did use them for more than a decade till mid of the 60's, and there were reasons for VW to let them away since then. Both reasons are known.
As the right rings for 24,5hp have a bigger cross section, perhaps they stand a blowby more than the thinner 36hp and 40hp rings. But also the thin 40hp rings have helped me, nevertheless. The blowby was only "repaired" with these rings, the cylinderheads, that would need a rework on the burned sealing surface are still in use, the blowby does not show again, allthough the cars are in daily, hard use.

As some experts here in Europe still use them, even try to copy them because of absence, there is a demand, and they have to be offered.
If you don't use them, because you have done finest rework on your fittings, it is ok when it works and you have a good feeling.

[virtanen]

How this ended?
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Mika
Split beetle restoration panels
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[geneL3c]

I believe the reason for using the asbestos / copper rings is to prevent carbon monoxide fumes from leaking into the heating system, not to provide cylinder to cylinder head seal for combustion. They were only used on " stale air " engines up until the 40hp " fresh air " engines were introduced in the early 1960s ( 1962 ? ). If you leave them out, you most likely will get fumes in the cabin with the heat on. My 1950 25hp engine has them and the heater still stinks !

[virtanen]

But the original tooling was found, did they make new copper rings? I haven't seen them for sale.
_________________
Mika
Split beetle restoration panels
Oval beetle restoration panels
New projects

[sled]

[geneL3c]

If there is leakage of combustion byproducts into the heating system from a bad cylinder to cylinder head seal it can migrate into the heating system which gets its air from the air circulating through the cooling system, which passes by the cylinders first. If you have a good seal between the cylinders and cylinder head, there is no problem, but fairly often, if the cylinder head seal is not perfect, exhaust fumes work their way into the " stale air " heating system. To improve the heating system to avoid this situation, VW completely re-designed the heating system to use air BEFORE it circulated over the engine, the aptly named " fresh air " heating system.