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reverand
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2015
Posts: 4
Location: Montana
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 Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 8:29 pm Post subject: School me on 412 performance |
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picked up a 412 fastback that hasn't moved since 1985 (one owner 60k mile car). going to give it a new life as a bit of a sleeper street/track car. didn't realize that finding performance info besides raby's rebuilds to be so hard to research. I live in Montana so shops will be scarce for the area for machine work. i really want to increase the performance, no budget set at this point but for a $500 car i just want to start looking around at what route you guys think i should take. turbos don't scare me, has it been done? has anybody gone the subaru route? or should i just go the increase displacement route? just wanting to build a car that will surprise a few muscle car owners on track type days. or is the 412 just not the car ideal for that?
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:03 pm Post subject: Re: school me on 412 performance |
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In short...its not the right car for that. I have some reservations to saying performance cannot be greatly increased.....but if you want to surprise muscle car owners (something I personally have 0 interest in). ....there is nothing with a type 4 engine that will do that and have any longevity.....and of course that begs the question of what you want to do with....really.
Tire smoking and squealing....uh...no. Not with a 411, 412, 914 or 912. kot enough rotating mass.....and without gutting any of those cars and installing totally different transmissions and mostly new suspension.....its just not going to happen.
At best....they can be "fast" cars....even good on a track with work (411 and 412)....or really good on a track (912 and 914).....but not drag racing or clutch dropping.
That being said...with the suspension mods we already know how to do.....the 411 and 412 can be made to handle easily....as well as my 2012 golf with a mild sport package.
The problems you will run into with that particular vehicle you have....which is a bit rare you know....it has a 4 speed....only a few thousand ahipped here......is that :
A. The four speed can probably handle about 200 HP max. 150 would be far safer.
B. In order to survive even with stock engine to about 100hp....that transmission must be totally gone through and several items addressed. It has some high mileage flaws that when fixed can make it run through 300k miles easily....but unaddressed. ...they typically see total destruction by about,150k. There are only a handful of parts and bearing available. What needs to be done is not,difficult or expensive but there are no shortcuts.
C. That transmission is unique to this car. Fits nothing else...and only one other transmission is even close without major fabrication. ..and even then...its work. That would be the Porsche 901transmission.
D. This car has no pan...and its a crash cell car....so unless you want ro totally gut it and weld it to a tube chassis.....you need to be careful and selective about what you cut and weld. Its a full unibody.
All of that being said....as Jake Raby,and others have noted many times. ....long before you start thinking about V-8 levels of HP for a VW (totally unnecessary )......think about the fact that its only a 2200 lb car. Has decently high gearing (3.73 or 3.91:1 final drive ).....has relatively competent suspension (that needs upgrading...but we have that covered). ...and can be as quick as my 2012 golf 0-60.
I'm in process of desiyning,rear discs for mine right now.
Other details are......virtually nothing exists for body parts, seals, suspension parts etc.
We have better than factory work arounds for all of that except the ball joints. ...close to a solution for that as well......but in general this will not be a simple or easy car ro do basic restoration work to...much less high performance.
Very worthwhile car. Fantastic to drive. The engine is the least of what you should be worrying about at this point.
I hope you take it on and restore it. Easily the best of the air cooled vws in my opinion. Ray
Last edited by raygreenwood on Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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reverand
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2015
Posts: 4
Location: Montana
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:08 am Post subject: Re: school me on 412 performance |
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| Thanks you so so much. At this point I will keep doing research on these and what it is I want to do and how I will accomplish it. I knew this wasn't the typical platform for what I wanted but I wasn't expecting to be so far off what the beetle guys do. When j start tearing into it more i will be sure to start a build thread. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:42 am Post subject: Re: school me on 412 performance |
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| reverand wrote: |
| Thanks you so so much. At this point I will keep doing research on these and what it is I want to do and how I will accomplish it. I knew this wasn't the typical platform for what I wanted but I wasn't expecting to be so far off what the beetle guys do. When j start tearing into it more i will be sure to start a build thread. |
Actually...not trying to scare you away. Just want to make sure you know the realities. You note "track" car....road racing? Much more doable than drag racing.
That being said...there was one guy with a major year long thread on the STF...from Holland or Denmark with a 412...who totally gutted the car...did all the suspension mods we talk about...put it about 125-140 hp....and track raced it and had a blast.
You can do all right with it. It would be very fun. It will need chassis stiffening in rear....there is some possible provision that may help that be easier.
The double sway bar mod is a great one in the rear. Moderate lowering in front...couple options for that. Delrin sway bar bushings like I have made....bronze idler....the car can definitely be made to handle in a track-able manner.
The limitation in all of this ....really....that I see....will be the gearing available for the transmission...no options unless you fabricate and put in a 901.
The other trackable limitaton will be a bit of fabbing to put in new ball joints. I have options for that...rebuildable ball joints....but I am months away from fabbing.
Ray |
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reverand
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2015
Posts: 4
Location: Montana
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:01 am Post subject: Re: School me on 412 performance |
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| I want to do something different then a typical resto. It doesn't have to blow the doors off anything. Just more power and be fun. We live in the mountains do highway fun is a priority. Just don't want a car that if I decide to go have fun with drag or autocross that I completely embarrass myself. Just seeing if I'm completely crazy or not. I've seen bugs do it. Why not a type 4? I will continue looking into either increasing displacement or maybe a rear mounted turbo setup. I know a guy a city over with a turbo air cooled bug maybe I'll try to get in touch with him. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:00 pm Post subject: Re: School me on 412 performance |
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| reverand wrote: |
| I want to do something different then a typical resto. It doesn't have to blow the doors off anything. Just more power and be fun. We live in the mountains do highway fun is a priority. Just don't want a car that if I decide to go have fun with drag or autocross that I completely embarrass myself. Just seeing if I'm completely crazy or not. I've seen bugs do it. Why not a type 4? I will continue looking into either increasing displacement or maybe a rear mounted turbo setup. I know a guy a city over with a turbo air cooled bug maybe I'll try to get in touch with him. |
Unless its a totally different chassis...it will never do drag or autocross. Its center of gravity is far too high and lowering will not fix that. Its just too tall of a car.
Without cutting out fender wells...which the chassis will not allow....slamming it is not an option. Its normal height above ground is 5.5" lowest point already.
Road racing...no problem.
Just with the stock----ish...engine and better than factory tuning on both injection and suspension....you can take it from 12 seconds 0-60 to about 8-9 seconds....just with the 1.7 engine.
Serious tuning can make the 1.7 go from 82 hp to right at 100. My 412 when it gets back on the road next year...with 1.7L....will match or exceed virtually any stock 914 up to the 2.0 (and even many of those since they have the poor factory tuning only).
It did before and will do so again with improvements.
Its amazing...I keep telling these guys...just how nice the suspension on the 411/412 can be made with some diligent tuning.
In a car this light...a solid 125hp with about equal or better torque....will be a head snapper.
Drop the front level...drop an inch all around (any more is a waste)..tighten it up carefully...put on some 5.5"with 205/60-15 all around.....and a 2056 and it will turn some heads because it will be a retro sport sedan on the level with the first and second generation GTI...meaning it will never be a tire roaster (reliably) or an autocrosser....but will be a great canyon carver....and very quick for what it is. Ray |
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reverand
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2015
Posts: 4
Location: Montana
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| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:52 am Post subject: Re: School me on 412 performance |
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| Is there any places that sell the 2056 or is it cheaper for me to find somebody to machine the engine I have. I've already read that swapping In a type 1 engine is out of the question and pointless. I have to rebuild the engine already so I was thinking I might as well do improvements to get the power. You guys have been fantastic for what you've given me so far. 8 secs or so is really reasonable And sounds like a good goal to shoot for. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:41 am Post subject: Re: School me on 412 performance |
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| reverand wrote: |
| Is there any places that sell the 2056 or is it cheaper for me to find somebody to machine the engine I have. I've already read that swapping In a type 1 engine is out of the question and pointless. I have to rebuild the engine already so I was thinking I might as well do improvements to get the power. You guys have been fantastic for what you've given me so far. 8 secs or so is really reasonable And sounds like a good goal to shoot for. |
Look for the kit in the type 4 store. Ray |
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dawie
Samba Member
Joined: July 27, 2008
Posts: 217
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
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| Posted: Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:43 pm Post subject: Re: School me on 412 performance |
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Some racing 412's:
[img]http://www.vwnorge.no/index.php?PHPSESSID=eigcdejnuta7rm7s4a9t3td4d3&action=dlattach;topic=31718.0;attach=117063;image[/img]
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hulken
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Joined: January 29, 2009
Posts: 95
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:03 am Post subject: Re: School me on 412 performance |
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| A Porsche 915 transmission swap is not a difficult matter, just minor modification to body above transmission, new mounting and a slight modifcation of the gear rod between shifter and transmission. This will give you a potent 5-speed transmission ready to handle high hp's. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:14 am Post subject: Re: School me on 412 performance |
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| hulken wrote: |
| A Porsche 915 transmission swap is not a difficult matter, just minor modification to body above transmission, new mounting and a slight modifcation of the gear rod between shifter and transmission. This will give you a potent 5-speed transmission ready to handle high hp's. |
Thanks Hulken! I was hoping a few with road racing experience was chime in!
The gold 412 at the top was the one I was referring too....and I remember from his posts what that took as well. It has a LOT of added chassis strengthening.
Thank you for the note on the 915 trans. I knew it was in that family. A couple of people have started working with 901 but I have not seen one finished.
The VW "612"....is extensive fabrication in many places as well.
The really nice thing about the 411412 chassis is that there is room for alternate engines. The difficult part is strengthening front suspension and rear axle cross member mounting points. It really needs a cage.
As I noted....road racing is not out of the question at all.
Drag racing....hell I guess you could slap a big big enough engine in anything....but with the flexibility of the chassis....why would you? You would need to trailer it there.
I had forgotten about the 612 project!
Ray |
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chicagovw
Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2007
Posts: 1423
Location: Chicago IL/CHandler AZ
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: School me on 412 performance |
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| If the Beetle-which was a 1930s design, can be modded to run eights which they can do, with some floor pan cars running tens, I do not see why a car with thirty years newer technology cannot be made to do the same or better. The structure is more rigid, the wheelbase is longer, the center of gravity is lower, the suspension is much more modern, etc. What about FAT Performance, which has been doing hot rod type 4 engines for decades? |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: School me on 412 performance |
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| chicagovw wrote: |
| If the Beetle-which was a 1930s design, can be modded to run eights which they can do, with some floor pan cars running tens, I do not see why a car with thirty years newer technology cannot be made to do the same or better. The structure is more rigid, the wheelbase is longer, the center of gravity is lower, the suspension is much more modern, etc. What about FAT Performance, which has been doing hot rod type 4 engines for decades? |
You are almost completely incorrect on most counts  ...sorry.....but
1. The 411 and 412 does not have a lower center of gravity. Its equal or higher.
2. The chassis is not stiffer at all. Where dis you get that idea?
Its more flexible and its a crash cell car front and rear.....that being said...with a triangulated front strut brace and a rear tie bar and brace between shock towers it can be much stiffer. For drag racing......it would take a full cage. Also...its a 2300 lb car. Unlike a beetle.....you are not going to dump much weight out of this car without cutting parts you cant cut......mits been done.....but again...full cage.
3. The suspension IS more modern.....but has many flaws as one of the earliest strut systems. The springs are excellent.....but virtually all else needs to be upgraded. ....and we know how to do that. Thats not the issue.
4. Brakes are better than most beetle....and can be upgraded but nothing is bolt on.
What about Fat performance?....numerous people can do high performance type 4 engines. There is no issue with getting more HP.
The issue is that neither the stock 004 or the 901 transaxle is set up for drag racing.....and the parts are not laying around to do so.
Yes.....you can drag with either trans if you want....but with the 004....you will have to race with the gears it has. Nothing out there for it. When you break it...and you will.....you may go years between finding another.
The Porache 901....lots of gear reatios.....not many of them really ideal for drag.....and not laying around any your average VW tranny shop.....and if you do find them $$$$.
But hey....do what you want! Once you start really getting inside of these vehicles.....it will become readily apparent what can and cannot be easily done. Ray |
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Lars S
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Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 786
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:17 pm Post subject: Re: School me on 412 performance |
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Just a note on the wheelbase:
The 412 has only about 3" (8cm) longer wheelbase than the superbeetle but the car is about 19" (48cm) longer.
This is one reason why the Type4 likes to nod (in its standard suspension setup), this was noted already in magazine tests at its introduction.
Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver 
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold 
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 11:20 am Post subject: Re: School me on 412 performance |
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| Lars S wrote: |
Just a note on the wheelbase:
The 412 has only about 3" (8cm) longer wheelbase than the superbeetle but the car is about 19" (48cm) longer.
This is one reason why the Type4 likes to nod (in its standard suspension setup), this was noted already in magazine tests at its introduction.
Lars S |
Yes...right off the bat...going to better cartridges in the front like the audi cartridge, better bushings and gas shocks and extra sway bar on the rear...really fixed that issue well.
These cars can be very capable in road holding for spirited twisty driving when modified correctly....but I can't imagine the issues for drag racing with this chassis.....or why one would even want to....outside of bracket racing.
Its a fairly large car. Ray |
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ubercrap
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Joined: July 01, 2004
Posts: 1060
Location: Ridley Park, PA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: School me on 412 performance |
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Yes, a Subaru swap has been done!
_________________
'74 412 wagon
(2) '74 412 2dr. sedan
'73 412 2dr. sedan |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: School me on 412 performance |
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| ubercrap wrote: |
| Yes, a Subaru swap has been done! |
Dr. Crap!......nic3 to hear from you! 
Ray |
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ubercrap
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Joined: July 01, 2004
Posts: 1060
Location: Ridley Park, PA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 7:06 am Post subject: Re: School me on 412 performance |
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Yeah, still alive and kicking! Still have some of my cars, probably my boy will be old enough to help me/drive by the time I finish them...I just remembered there are videos around of a 911 powered 412 ( that Orange German look one) wagon in Scandinavia whipping up on various muscle cars at the drag strip. The Suby swap thread is here in this forum somewhere, Project Ugly Duckling I think they called it. Think it turned out pretty good IIRC
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'74 412 wagon
(2) '74 412 2dr. sedan
'73 412 2dr. sedan |
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