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LS1 swap vs VW Type 1 swap into a '76 911 Targa
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Lo Cash John
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2015 9:11 pm    Post subject: LS1 swap vs VW Type 1 swap into a '76 911 Targa Reply with quote

Let me start by saying I know, opinions are like A-holes, everybody has one. In this case I've more or less made up my mind but I''m open to input from you guys. Plus, this might be useful info for future readers.

My dad has a 76 911 Targa sitting in his barn. He bought it several years ago from an old friend and I don't know the exact details of it. My dad says it only has one tiny bit of rust and that's in the floor near the pedals (He's VERY anal about such things so I believe him). It has the 2.7 liter engine and it seems to have weak compression which is likely why the previous owner garaged it many years ago. It's blue, with blue interior Sick and is rolling 15 inch cookie cutters.

My dad is something of a tight wad (that's being very kind) BUT he is something of a gear head. He mentioned bring it to me in a year or two and have me get it going. He'd seen Renegade Hybrids website and was kind of excited about the notion of a V8 swap. But his cheapness spoke up and he's talked about putting an old Type 1 motor in there and cruising that around.

What he has most certainly ruled out is rebuilding the mag case 2.7. The cost vs power output just doesn't pan out and I agree with that. I guess an aluminum 3.0 would be an option, but again the price is pretty steep for the hp levels. Yes it's original but...

My thinking is a Chevy LS swap into the ol' Targa using the Renegade kit. While it's not original, the hp/dollar ratio is pretty awesome and it'll draw some attention when the old man rolls it to the local cruise nights and doughnut runs.

His thinking is VW motor because it's cheap, it'll just about get the car to 70mph and it's cheap. Keep in mind my dad hasn't owned an aircooled VW since about 1984 so I think rebuild and tune-up parts MIGHT give him sticker shock.

While I love playing with Type 1 motors, I am flatly (pun!!) apposed to it in this case. I think the car demands more power and if I'm going to do most of the work on this thing, it needs to be something to put a smile on my face.


I argue that selling the 2.7 as is, COMPLETE with the injection stuff will go a good ways towards buying the Renegade kit. I'd like to hear your thoughts on what this is worth, knowing it runs and drives but has low compression on a couple of cylinders.

I'm no 911 guru but I suspect these "disco era" 911's are about the least valuable of the series. Sort of like the curved windshield super beetle is to the bug guys.


So which will do the least to de-value the car?

1) Do a nice clean install of an injected LS1
2) DO a nice clean install of a Type 1 1600 with carb
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VWCOOL
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LS EVERYHING
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jt912
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Renegade conversion is pretty intrusive and will most likely result in a car that has limited appeal should you want to sell it. Another option might be a healthy type-4. Porsche did it with the 912E in '76.
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thesatanicmechanic
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello there.

Inspect more carefully for rust in the trunk, under the battery. I suspect that it may need at least a suspension pan, battery tray & fuel tank support.

Blue/Blue is a very unique color combination. Ballsy even. It does not necessarily have a negative impact on the value of the car.

The Renegade swap is awesome, but it's a bell that cannot be unrung. Extensive, practically irreversible mods are done in the process. The car gets chopped up. In addition, the stock 915 transaxle will have to be built to adequately cope with the power from an LS mill (read expensive), or it will need to be babied, kind of negating the effect of doing such a high powered swap.

The type one bolts to the trans, but needs a custom flywheel to adapt it to the engine. There aren't any off the shelf units out there that i'm aware of. The 915 trans has a larger diameter input shaft and uses a "pull" style TOB and pressure plate.

The type 4 is a much more direct fit using '76 912E parts.

Whatever you end up choosing, it isn't going to be cheap.

I'd argue for repairing the 2.7 or installing a used 3 liter from a '78-'83, or 3.2 liter from an '84-'89. Want carbs for a 911? $2500 for a good used setup.
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Lo Cash John
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My TIG welder and I say NOTHING is irreversible. Of course there is the matter of time & effort vs the final value.

Something to know about my dad is he doesn't sell anything, ever. The day he kicks the bucket this thing becomes mine. I guess with that said, the question isn't really about devaluing the car. It's really about the most bang for the buck. And a stock LS1 packs a lot of bang for not a lot of bucks.

I hear ya on the trans issue but he's not going to the drag strip with this thing. The most abuse it'll see is some roll-on acceleration on the highway. I think the 915 can handle that for a while. If it goes crunch, crunch, then I'll start hunting for something more robust.

Any thoughts on what the 2.7, injections stuff, oil tank, etc, etc is worth?
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thesatanicmechanic
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Practically irreversible.

I know I'd like to buy the complete engine and oiling system for $1000, but it's probably worth more like $2500+. Haven't shopped for a 2.7 liter core in quite a while. I may be really low.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:42 am    Post subject: Re: LS1 swap vs VW Type 1 swap into a '76 911 Targa Reply with quote

That is all just stupid. If you ever want to drive this thing in his lifetime, just fix the damned 2.7. I does not have to be a $10k fix, just fix what's wrong. All cars run on used parts. If you want to be anal, be anally clean and reassemble the same engine with time serts and new studs and rings.
EVERY old part will fit and go together 5 times as quick as any conversion. ANY normally skilled mechanic could have this thing driving THIS SEASON instaed of it being a garage/ barn queen for another decade. Last I knew, these cars look quite good from the driver's seat.
A correctly prepped STOCK 2.7S engine will pull that car to 143mph.
Al
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BK911
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 12:45 pm    Post subject: Re: LS1 swap vs VW Type 1 swap into a '76 911 Targa Reply with quote

Best way to devalue the car is by selling the original engine.
Even the lowly 2.7s are worth some coin now.
Sorta like dating the ugliest super model!
Blue on blue is awesome!!
Do a leak down test.
That will tell you WHY you have low compression.
May be an "easy" fix.
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Alan Brase
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 5:24 pm    Post subject: Re: LS1 swap vs VW Type 1 swap into a '76 911 Targa Reply with quote

BK911 wrote:
Best way to devalue the car is by selling the original engine.
Even the lowly 2.7s are worth some coin now.
Sorta like dating the ugliest super model!
Blue on blue is awesome!!
Do a leak down test.
That will tell you WHY you have low compression.
May be an "easy" fix.

Yes, unless you got sand in the oil tank, the bottom end is okay.
Just fix what's wrong.
Unless you are looking for more than 300 hp, then possibly an American V8 might be cheaper.
Still another idea for 300 hp would be a Whipple supercharger on the stock motor. I saw one in a shop once and that thing SOUNDED LIKE 350 HP!
Al
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HarryFD
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:47 pm    Post subject: Re: LS1 swap vs VW Type 1 swap into a '76 911 Targa Reply with quote

Your car, your money, your choice.

If you want to go the SBC Route keep in mind a few things:

1-You got to cool the motor. Where will the radiator(s) go? How do you move air over them? Remember the 911 was not designed to have a radiator. If you look at the later water cooled 911, you can appreciate the challenge.

2-As noted above, the 915 transmission is only good for a bit over 200hp. Strengthening it to handle more power requires big coins.

3-The middies (74-77) 911's are beginning to get some love. While the cost to rebuild can be higher than, say, a SBC, you maintain the value of your car. A properly built, stock 2.7 is a fun motor.

My $0.02
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:27 pm    Post subject: Re: LS1 swap vs VW Type 1 swap into a '76 911 Targa Reply with quote

I glanced at the renegade web site. If you add up all the conversion parts, plus the cost of a complete stranger SBC motor, you can easily go north of $10k. For that money you should be able to get the 911 motor rebuilt and retain the value and marketabilty of the car.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:11 pm    Post subject: Re: LS1 swap vs VW Type 1 swap into a '76 911 Targa Reply with quote

If you go type 1 (you can build a 3+L) you have to buy a universal case about $750 as you will need the rear mounting holes to adapt to the rear engine "mustache bar" as the motor and trans are suspended between front and rear mounts not like the old beetle where the trans supports the engine. Your Porsche motor probably has flat cams as you need to use euro blend oil to keep that from happening. Remove the valve covers and see how much the valves are depressing. A couple of cams would be your easiest fix.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:03 am    Post subject: Re: LS1 swap vs VW Type 1 swap into a '76 911 Targa Reply with quote

you will want differnet gearing with the chevy motor. the porsche motor revs for,power, the chevy just idles along with lot sof torque. you may find even in fifth gear that your chevy is turning too fast. gear changes can be expensive. I got a 3.8 liter 231 cu in buick v6 in a 914. can start in fifth gear, really need different ratios. at freeway speeds I am at 3500 rpm in 5th, the buick would be happier at a lower rpm. so consider the envienrpm with the tranny and wheels you will use.


my vote is for,the stock motor. these era 911 are starting to become collectable. and worth bank.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:32 pm    Post subject: Re: LS1 swap vs VW Type 1 swap into a '76 911 Targa Reply with quote

You know a Chevy into a 914 makes sense, but into a 911.....You will be so ass heavy it won't corner worth crud, it will probably will be hot as heck inside from the radiator cooling pipes running under those thin pans. Go air cooled or sell it.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 4:54 am    Post subject: Re: LS1 swap vs VW Type 1 swap into a '76 911 Targa Reply with quote

Asn an owner of a 912 with a t1 2387 motor I will agree with everyone on the repair the 2.7 oem motor and have a great time.I do enjoy the torque and power the big stroker serves however the fittment and final tweaking on a swap is time consuming.I can only imagine the issues with the Renagade swap.Rebuild the oem motor and let it rip and be done with it
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:01 pm    Post subject: Re: LS1 swap vs VW Type 1 swap into a '76 911 Targa Reply with quote

a 911 is what it is... its not a chevy muscle. If your dad wants that sound and feel, go find a old chevy and put a LS in that, easy to do, and fun! the 911 is just cool the way it is.... keep the 2.7, dont waste time and money with a LS swap.... or just sell off the 911, I am sure a lot of us would love to get a 76 with a 2.7 running.... I am one of them....
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:09 pm    Post subject: Re: LS1 swap vs VW Type 1 swap into a '76 911 Targa Reply with quote

Cptn. Calzone wrote:
Asn an owner of a 912 with a t1 2387 motor I will agree with everyone on the repair the 2.7 oem motor and have a great time.I do enjoy the torque and power the big stroker serves however the fittment and final tweaking on a swap is time consuming.I can only imagine the issues with the Renagade swap.Rebuild the oem motor and let it rip and be done with it

Or, just make it into 3.0 car, with most of the later motor fittings. More torque a little more power. Not sure about trans ratios. Real late 82 up 915 trannies had aluminum cases rather than magnesium.
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83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home
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