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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16474 Location: Brookeville, MD
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j_dirge Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007 Posts: 4641 Location: Twain Harte, CA
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) |
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Cool Canasync.. sounds like you're on the same page, then..
I saw those posts.. similar to the intent of mine.. as checking for understanding.
I have 29.5 tires.
I have new drums rebuilt.. but one is well out of adjustment (because I have not gotten that far)
I don't use ramps.. so I don't own ramps.. but in the interest of the topic (something I am looking into as well) I wanted to participate. The curb idea has similar dimensions.. and I can do basic math.
MOST everyone's intent here is to participate. not to deride or second guess... or create "drama"
But everyone has a bad hair day now an then.. and "tone" certainly drifts.
Maybe you can post up some results and help out Sodo and the Samba?
Cheers,
j
Sodo.
Parked on 23% grade last night.. measured with gauge.
As noted above 29.5 tires.. van lightly loaded.
9 clicks held.. barely.
(usually when properly adjusted 5 clicks holds on that grade OK..)
Driver side drum needs the adjusting.. Interesting that the cable split bar can accommodate that variation in side to aide adjustment in the shoes themselves... and still "nearly" function.
FWIW.. When underway.. My parking brake will not lock up these tires.
The "lever" of 29.5" is considerable _________________ -89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9518 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:27 pm Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) |
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j_dirge wrote: |
Sodo.
Parked on 23% grade last night.. measured with gauge.
As noted above 29.5 tires.. van lightly loaded.
9 clicks held.. barely.
(usually when properly adjusted 5 clicks holds on that grade OK..)
Driver side drum needs the adjusting.. Interesting that the cable split bar can accommodate that variation in side to aide adjustment in the shoes themselves... and still "nearly" function.
FWIW.. When underway.. My parking brake will not lock up these tires.
The "lever" of 29.5" is considerable |
Well that's an interesting variation. I am going to guess that front+rear wheels on a 23% grade equals rear on 46% ramp with front wheels on the level. that may be a good way to approximate a 50% ramp.
And you are saying that drum brakes (in need of attn) hold but kinda barely with 29.5" tires? Pretty good data point....for a drum guy..... Thats 6% bigger than mine, 16% bigger than stock though. Where's those disc fellas? And you're right they should mention wheel size. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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j_dirge Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007 Posts: 4641 Location: Twain Harte, CA
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) |
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Sodo wrote: |
And you are saying that drum brakes (in need of attn) hold but kinda barely with 29.5" tires? Pretty good data point....for a drum guy..... Thats 6% bigger than mine, 16% bigger than stock though. Where's those disc fellas? And you're right they should mention wheel size. |
Yep.. "kinda barely" is correct.
I would not leave it like that and go to dinner and a movie.. not without curbing the wheels into a solid curb (the law in SF, BTW).. and/or a wheel chock. _________________ -89 GL Westy, SVX.. finally.
-57 pan f/g buggy with a 67 pancake Type 3 "S"
"Jimi Hendrix owned one. Richard Nixon did not"
-Grand Tour, Season 1, episodes 4 and 5
danfromsyr wrote: |
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16474 Location: Brookeville, MD
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16474 Location: Brookeville, MD
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) |
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OK. The planets and weather aligned and I was able to get out and try the hand brake. The steepest part of my driveway is 14% so that is what I had to use. (No ramps available). 15" Rheins with 205/70/15 Nokians.
The parking brake held at 5 clicks. This is with a Smallcar rear disc conversion from around 2008.
I usually use about 4 clicks or so in normal situations. I can 'just' grab a 6th click if I REALLY pull with all my strength. No way I can get a 7th click. _________________ Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9518 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) |
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OK thanks, 14% front + 14% rear probably equates to a 28% ramp on the rear (with front wheels on the flat).
We now have 2 data points for rear discs.
1 pass (@28%slope)
1 fail (@50%slope)
Hope more folks chime in. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Chuey Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2010 Posts: 854 Location: Oceanside, California
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) |
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Some random thoughts:
Nice that Insyncro chimed in. He seems to know a lot. I wish he would impart more info. As in, "Here are some factors to take into consideration." or "Some things you may be able to do are:" Instead of "My stuff works."
The original test, as asked for, seems pretty legit to me. It is simple, pretty repeatable, at least on an informal scale, and fits the needs of the original poster.
I have to wonder if the reason there aren't more rear disc folks chiming in is a small portion of folks here actually have disc rears? I have no idea how common those set-ups are, but that could be the reason for lack of comments.
Chuey |
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ThankYouJerry Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2012 Posts: 2271 Location: Shakedown Street
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:18 pm Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) |
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Maybe this will pan out???
From GW's Feb 2016 Newsletter:
Coming Soon
Rear Disc Brakes for Vanagon
We are really excited about the development of our custom-designed rear disc brake kit for Vanagon. The kit will include custom rotors and calipers, and it will offer a much-improved rear brake experience (including your parking brake). Even better, the rear hubs will not have to be machined! Our R&D team is hard at work, and we expect to have these ready for launch in the next few months. Stay tuned!
We kindly request that you refrain from emailing and/or calling our sales staff regarding availability of this coming-soon product. It will be live in our New Products section as soon as it's ready! _________________ 1990 Multivan - "Ohana"
1.8T, Auto w/3.27 R&P + Peloquin TBD |
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16474 Location: Brookeville, MD
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9518 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:53 pm Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) |
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Not much action on this issue.
I drove another Smallcar disc brake vanagon a few days ago. The parking brake was dismal. Pulling it while rolling slowly downhill ( at walking pace 2 mph? ) stopped the van in less than 10 feet. It was better than mine. Wish I coulda put it on a ramp to get a datapoint but no time. I doubt it would hold. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9518 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:19 am Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) |
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Had a premonition that nobody's posting a test with disc parking brakes because there are no "successses" yet. Forum dynamics & all. If anybody's brake can hold on a ramp (plz do a geniune test not just predict) can you please post? Or failure too, TheSamba needs to KNOW.
Howsabout GoWesty, can your prototypes hold on level ground, rear up on ramps? _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16474 Location: Brookeville, MD
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9518 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) |
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dobryan wrote: |
Sodo, IMO, It is really a heck of a lot easier to test the brakes on a hill then drag out ramps (if they have them). How about asking for tests on a hill? (And if no one responds then you'll have more evidence that others seem not to want to test it.) |
Sounds a good idea but off-topic. Maybe start a different thread? A guy could drive around and test various hills, measure the slope it holds on. Or barely doesnt or hold while in gear. Or holds if preset by footbrake or....or....or. Someone could design this test, perhaps you Dave? Sounds like a lot of variables that could really plug up a thread, go for pages without conclusion. Look how simple this one is and what's happening.
"Ramps" may have minor variations but are much standard-er than hills. What I want to know is can it hold, "yes" or "no". Keep it simple for now.
Certainly after some yes/no there is use in comparing everyone's various hills, which brakes hold the steepest etc etc etc. Dave you mentioned before that you don't have ramps. Your driveway is pretty good data but lesser slope than a ramp. I have not yet grokked the possibility that nobody has or uses ramps anymore but certainly that day is coming. The demographic on The Samba is changing plus I'm way behind the times in other ways too.
It's springtime - Vanagons are coming out to play. Had one guy tell me he never uses a parking brake becaus hes a flatlander and it goes unused for so long it's more than likely to just get stuck & burn up. I never thought of that. I can imagine that guy is not going to test. But if he's ever going to drive out west where there's hills it'd good to get the brakes in order.
Repeating original request to keep focus. There are some drum brakes that hold, but no disc brake tests yet (just one fail). I dunno but it looks pretty dismal, methinks everyone knows theirs will fail. The "null data" is somewhat interesting too. Here's the opening post request :
Sodo wrote: |
Can your parking brake hold the van parked, in neutral, partway up a standard wheel ramp? Van on level ground.
Don't get carried away with details, just trying to get some basic data with regards to parking brakes to compare "disc brake upgrades".
Data point #1: My rear disc brake (SmallCar 2009) cannot hold the van on the ramp, I have to put it in gear or it just rolls down. My wheels are 27.7", appx 10% bigger than stock. |
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16474 Location: Brookeville, MD
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Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) |
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Sodo wrote: |
dobryan wrote: |
Sodo, IMO, It is really a heck of a lot easier to test the brakes on a hill then drag out ramps (if they have them). How about asking for tests on a hill? (And if no one responds then you'll have more evidence that others seem not to want to test it.) |
Sounds a good idea but off-topic. Maybe start a different thread? A guy could drive around and test various hills, measure the slope it holds on. Or barely doesnt or hold while in gear. Or holds if preset by footbrake or....or....or. Someone could design this test, perhaps you Dave? Sounds like a lot of variables that could really plug up a thread, go for pages without conclusion. Look how simple this one is and what's happening.
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Yep, lots of variables.... I'll let you run with it... truly interested in what others can chime in with. All is good. _________________ Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9518 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:23 am Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) |
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OK we have success, sort of. The parking brake now holds my van on a ramp. It held, but barely on the yes side of a yes-or-no, cuz when I shut the door (thus shook the van) it squeaked down the ramp a little but held.
Here's a link to the mod that's been done (increase caliper lever arm 29mm). It helps a LOT. Not like a real parking brake though (or a wheel chock).
I've carried this wheel chock behind the seat for about 5 years now (since the brake upgrade) not ready to give it up yet....dang.
At this rate of data flowing in we will be guessing forever. Sure wish there were more a few more brave souls willing to post datapoints for rear discs holding on a simple ramp in neutral. ------> Just a yes or no. And if you want to add more, just brake type & wheel diameter. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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flomulgator Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2013 Posts: 950 Location: Leavenworth, WA
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Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:08 am Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) |
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I guess I never posted in this and I'm sure you know my situation but I'll post it here just for the sake of data.
Rear brakes: small car disc conversion, which are actually Audi 200 Sedan calipers. Rusty. Stock-looking rear brake cables.
Test: don't need to do it, because I am 100% certain that it will roll right off and I'll have to chase me van down the street. _________________ She's built like a steakhouse, but she handles like a bistro! |
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flomulgator Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2013 Posts: 950 Location: Leavenworth, WA
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Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:11 pm Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) |
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Not sure which thread is best but I'll post data here for the test. I fixed my brakes, just had the e-brake hold in neutral on a Seattle street that I measured at 15% grade. Took 6 clicks. So I guess that would be 30% ramp angle.
Smallcar rear disks
Lokar Cables
215/65/16
5000 lbs. _________________ She's built like a steakhouse, but she handles like a bistro! |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9518 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:01 am Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) |
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Has anyone installed/tested Burley's new 6,000 GVW parking brake?
http://burleysmotorsports.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=26_22&products_id=99
To be useful (and worth $950) it must hold MUCH better than "the ramp test." The ramp test only confirms that your brake is slightly better than "nonexistent".
Able to skid a tire on loose gravel, would be fantastic for a cable-operated rear disc. Burley has since removed the parking brake performance claim on his website. Is this because it doesn't work? Or perhaps deleted for legal liability (which is certainly understandable).
But can anyone report on the performance? _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9518 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) |
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Anyone able to test the EuroVan brake conversion yet?
Heres the federal standards.
Them are FEET of stopping distance from 20 mph.
My audi brakes were 'stopping' at 260 feet from 20mph. I did not check the distance for 'just rolling".
So I extended the lever arm (welding etc) on the Audi brake and I got it to stop in 72 feet from 20mph.
But the increased leverage over-powered the auto-adjust feature, causing it to 'slip'.
So after a couple actuations, it slips and now then the lever just hits against its max and it's 'over'.
So no real success on that mod.
The Audi brake is from a 2400 lb passenger car, and was barely sufficient on that car too.
I'm not sure how referring to the V8 model as "3800 lb" resolves this.
This simple "ramp test" is just a forum proposal qualifier for parking brakes
If this test holds, MAYBE you can park the van on campsite leveling rocks.
And it's a home test that members can do fairly easily.
I think a real good next level would be to see if it can re-stop while moving down the ramp:
1) use the footbrake to set the van on the incline, pull parking brake to hold it there.
2) Then release parking brake slightly, as the van just starts to move, try to stop the van with the parking brake before it rolls off the incline.
Can anyone with the EuroVan brakes test it on a ramp?
I'm sure it will hold.
The next level (can you re-stop it?) would be interesting. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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