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Parking brake test (disc and drum)
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dobryan
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:24 am    Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) Reply with quote

I intend to do some tests this weekend. Remember we just got 30 inches of snow... Very Happy
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) Reply with quote

Cool Canasync.. sounds like you're on the same page, then..
I saw those posts.. similar to the intent of mine.. as checking for understanding.

I have 29.5 tires.
I have new drums rebuilt.. but one is well out of adjustment (because I have not gotten that far)
I don't use ramps.. so I don't own ramps.. but in the interest of the topic (something I am looking into as well) I wanted to participate. The curb idea has similar dimensions.. and I can do basic math.

MOST everyone's intent here is to participate. not to deride or second guess... or create "drama"
But everyone has a bad hair day now an then.. and "tone" certainly drifts.


Maybe you can post up some results and help out Sodo and the Samba?

Cheers,
j

Sodo.
Parked on 23% grade last night.. measured with gauge.
As noted above 29.5 tires.. van lightly loaded.
9 clicks held.. barely.
(usually when properly adjusted 5 clicks holds on that grade OK..)

Driver side drum needs the adjusting.. Interesting that the cable split bar can accommodate that variation in side to aide adjustment in the shoes themselves... and still "nearly" function.

FWIW.. When underway.. My parking brake will not lock up these tires.
The "lever" of 29.5" is considerable
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danfromsyr wrote:
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) Reply with quote

j_dirge wrote:
Sodo.
Parked on 23% grade last night.. measured with gauge.
As noted above 29.5 tires.. van lightly loaded.
9 clicks held.. barely.
(usually when properly adjusted 5 clicks holds on that grade OK..)

Driver side drum needs the adjusting.. Interesting that the cable split bar can accommodate that variation in side to aide adjustment in the shoes themselves... and still "nearly" function.

FWIW.. When underway.. My parking brake will not lock up these tires.
The "lever" of 29.5" is considerable


Well that's an interesting variation. I am going to guess that front+rear wheels on a 23% grade equals rear on 46% ramp with front wheels on the level. that may be a good way to approximate a 50% ramp.

And you are saying that drum brakes (in need of attn) hold but kinda barely with 29.5" tires? Pretty good data point....for a drum guy..... Thats 6% bigger than mine, 16% bigger than stock though. Where's those disc fellas? And you're right they should mention wheel size.
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j_dirge
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:

And you are saying that drum brakes (in need of attn) hold but kinda barely with 29.5" tires? Pretty good data point....for a drum guy..... Thats 6% bigger than mine, 16% bigger than stock though. Where's those disc fellas? And you're right they should mention wheel size.

Yep.. "kinda barely" is correct.
I would not leave it like that and go to dinner and a movie.. not without curbing the wheels into a solid curb (the law in SF, BTW).. and/or a wheel chock.
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danfromsyr wrote:
those are straight line runs with light weight race cars for only 1/4mile at a time..
not pushing a loaded brick up a mountain pass with a family of 4+ inside expecting to have an event free vacation..
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dobryan
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:14 am    Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) Reply with quote

dobryan wrote:
I intend to do some tests this weekend. Remember we just got 30 inches of snow... Very Happy


Still intending to do this test. I messed up my back during the snow removal and haven't been out to the garage except to put the trash out.... Mad
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dobryan
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) Reply with quote

OK. The planets and weather aligned and I was able to get out and try the hand brake. The steepest part of my driveway is 14% so that is what I had to use. (No ramps available). 15" Rheins with 205/70/15 Nokians.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The parking brake held at 5 clicks. This is with a Smallcar rear disc conversion from around 2008.

I usually use about 4 clicks or so in normal situations. I can 'just' grab a 6th click if I REALLY pull with all my strength. No way I can get a 7th click.
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

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Sodo
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) Reply with quote

OK thanks, 14% front + 14% rear probably equates to a 28% ramp on the rear (with front wheels on the flat).

We now have 2 data points for rear discs.

1 pass (@28%slope)
1 fail (@50%slope)

Hope more folks chime in.
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Chuey
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) Reply with quote

Some random thoughts:

Nice that Insyncro chimed in. He seems to know a lot. I wish he would impart more info. As in, "Here are some factors to take into consideration." or "Some things you may be able to do are:" Instead of "My stuff works."

The original test, as asked for, seems pretty legit to me. It is simple, pretty repeatable, at least on an informal scale, and fits the needs of the original poster.

I have to wonder if the reason there aren't more rear disc folks chiming in is a small portion of folks here actually have disc rears? I have no idea how common those set-ups are, but that could be the reason for lack of comments.

Chuey
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ThankYouJerry
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) Reply with quote

Maybe this will pan out???

From GW's Feb 2016 Newsletter:

Coming Soon

Rear Disc Brakes for Vanagon

We are really excited about the development of our custom-designed rear disc brake kit for Vanagon. The kit will include custom rotors and calipers, and it will offer a much-improved rear brake experience (including your parking brake). Even better, the rear hubs will not have to be machined! Our R&D team is hard at work, and we expect to have these ready for launch in the next few months. Stay tuned!

We kindly request that you refrain from emailing and/or calling our sales staff regarding availability of this coming-soon product. It will be live in our New Products section as soon as it's ready!

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dobryan
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 7:14 am    Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) Reply with quote

Sodo, Have you tried tightening the parking brake cable so that you can only pull 5 or 6 clicks? I think you said you get 7 now. I know you are certain that the cable is not the issue, but I wonder if continuing to tighten that cable will have an effect. If not, oh well, easy enough to put it back to where it was.
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) Reply with quote

Not much action on this issue.

I drove another Smallcar disc brake vanagon a few days ago. The parking brake was dismal. Pulling it while rolling slowly downhill ( at walking pace 2 mph? ) stopped the van in less than 10 feet. It was better than mine. Wish I coulda put it on a ramp to get a datapoint but no time. I doubt it would hold.
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:19 am    Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) Reply with quote

Had a premonition that nobody's posting a test with disc parking brakes because there are no "successses" yet. Forum dynamics & all. If anybody's brake can hold on a ramp (plz do a geniune test not just predict) can you please post? Or failure too, TheSamba needs to KNOW.

Howsabout GoWesty, can your prototypes hold on level ground, rear up on ramps?
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....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb


Last edited by Sodo on Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dobryan
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) Reply with quote

Sodo, IMO, It is really a heck of a lot easier to test the brakes on a hill then drag out ramps (if they have them). How about asking for tests on a hill? (And if no one responds then you'll have more evidence that others seem not to want to test it.) Very Happy
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Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

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Sodo
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) Reply with quote

dobryan wrote:
Sodo, IMO, It is really a heck of a lot easier to test the brakes on a hill then drag out ramps (if they have them). How about asking for tests on a hill? (And if no one responds then you'll have more evidence that others seem not to want to test it.) Very Happy


Sounds a good idea but off-topic. Maybe start a different thread? A guy could drive around and test various hills, measure the slope it holds on. Or barely doesnt or hold while in gear. Or holds if preset by footbrake or....or....or. Someone could design this test, perhaps you Dave? Sounds like a lot of variables that could really plug up a thread, go for pages without conclusion. Look how simple this one is and what's happening.

"Ramps" may have minor variations but are much standard-er than hills. What I want to know is can it hold, "yes" or "no". Keep it simple for now.

Certainly after some yes/no there is use in comparing everyone's various hills, which brakes hold the steepest etc etc etc. Dave you mentioned before that you don't have ramps. Your driveway is pretty good data but lesser slope than a ramp. I have not yet grokked the possibility that nobody has or uses ramps anymore but certainly that day is coming. The demographic on The Samba is changing plus I'm way behind the times in other ways too.

It's springtime - Vanagons are coming out to play. Had one guy tell me he never uses a parking brake becaus hes a flatlander and it goes unused for so long it's more than likely to just get stuck & burn up. I never thought of that. I can imagine that guy is not going to test. But if he's ever going to drive out west where there's hills it'd good to get the brakes in order. Shocked

Repeating original request to keep focus. There are some drum brakes that hold, but no disc brake tests yet (just one fail). I dunno but it looks pretty dismal, methinks everyone knows theirs will fail. The "null data" is somewhat interesting too. Here's the opening post request :

Sodo wrote:
Can your parking brake hold the van parked, in neutral, partway up a standard wheel ramp? Van on level ground.

Don't get carried away with details, just trying to get some basic data with regards to parking brakes to compare "disc brake upgrades".

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Data point #1: My rear disc brake (SmallCar 2009) cannot hold the van on the ramp, I have to put it in gear or it just rolls down. My wheels are 27.7", appx 10% bigger than stock.

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dobryan
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
dobryan wrote:
Sodo, IMO, It is really a heck of a lot easier to test the brakes on a hill then drag out ramps (if they have them). How about asking for tests on a hill? (And if no one responds then you'll have more evidence that others seem not to want to test it.) Very Happy


Sounds a good idea but off-topic. Maybe start a different thread? A guy could drive around and test various hills, measure the slope it holds on. Or barely doesnt or hold while in gear. Or holds if preset by footbrake or....or....or. Someone could design this test, perhaps you Dave? Sounds like a lot of variables that could really plug up a thread, go for pages without conclusion. Look how simple this one is and what's happening.


Yep, lots of variables.... I'll let you run with it... truly interested in what others can chime in with. All is good. Very Happy
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:23 am    Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) Reply with quote

OK we have success, sort of. The parking brake now holds my van on a ramp. It held, but barely on the yes side of a yes-or-no, cuz when I shut the door (thus shook the van) it squeaked down the ramp a little but held.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here's a link to the mod that's been done (increase caliper lever arm 29mm). It helps a LOT. Not like a real parking brake though (or a wheel chock).

I've carried this wheel chock behind the seat for about 5 years now (since the brake upgrade) not ready to give it up yet....dang.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


At this rate of data flowing in we will be guessing forever. Sure wish there were more a few more brave souls willing to post datapoints for rear discs holding on a simple ramp in neutral. ------> Just a yes or no. And if you want to add more, just brake type & wheel diameter.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:08 am    Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) Reply with quote

I guess I never posted in this and I'm sure you know my situation but I'll post it here just for the sake of data.

Rear brakes: small car disc conversion, which are actually Audi 200 Sedan calipers. Rusty. Stock-looking rear brake cables.

Test: don't need to do it, because I am 100% certain that it will roll right off and I'll have to chase me van down the street. Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) Reply with quote

Not sure which thread is best but I'll post data here for the test. I fixed my brakes, just had the e-brake hold in neutral on a Seattle street that I measured at 15% grade. Took 6 clicks. So I guess that would be 30% ramp angle.

Smallcar rear disks
Lokar Cables
215/65/16
5000 lbs.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) Reply with quote

Has anyone installed/tested Burley's new 6,000 GVW parking brake?

http://burleysmotorsports.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=26_22&products_id=99

To be useful (and worth $950) it must hold MUCH better than "the ramp test." The ramp test only confirms that your brake is slightly better than "nonexistent".

Able to skid a tire on loose gravel, would be fantastic for a cable-operated rear disc. Burley has since removed the parking brake performance claim on his website. Is this because it doesn't work? Or perhaps deleted for legal liability (which is certainly understandable).

But can anyone report on the performance?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Parking brake test (disc and drum) Reply with quote

Anyone able to test the EuroVan brake conversion yet?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Heres the federal standards.
Them are FEET of stopping distance from 20 mph.
My audi brakes were 'stopping' at 260 feet from 20mph. I did not check the distance for 'just rolling".
So I extended the lever arm (welding etc) on the Audi brake and I got it to stop in 72 feet from 20mph.
But the increased leverage over-powered the auto-adjust feature, causing it to 'slip'.
So after a couple actuations, it slips and now then the lever just hits against its max and it's 'over'.
So no real success on that mod.
The Audi brake is from a 2400 lb passenger car, and was barely sufficient on that car too.
I'm not sure how referring to the V8 model as "3800 lb" resolves this.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This simple "ramp test" is just a forum proposal qualifier for parking brakes
If this test holds, MAYBE you can park the van on campsite leveling rocks.
And it's a home test that members can do fairly easily.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I think a real good next level would be to see if it can re-stop while moving down the ramp:

1) use the footbrake to set the van on the incline, pull parking brake to hold it there.
2) Then release parking brake slightly, as the van just starts to move, try to stop the van with the parking brake before it rolls off the incline.

Can anyone with the EuroVan brakes test it on a ramp?
I'm sure it will hold.
The next level (can you re-stop it?) would be interesting.
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