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Source for new fuel pump
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drbacklash
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 7:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Source for new fuel pump Reply with quote

I got my rebuilt Pierburg fuel pump today and just wanted to get clarification on a few questions before I start the installation.

1. I asked the seller to include a push rod with the pump and he did. But it is a 4 inch rod and the one I removed is 4 1/4 inches. Since the car has a generator, the longer rod is the correct one?

2. I'm not sure how to tell which is the inlet tube and which is the outlet. The tube closest to the big nut (filter?) Points upward toward the carb. The one behind it seems to be on the same level as the fuel line and looks to head toward the filter. Are these assumptions correct?

3. What gasket sealer is best for this application and should both gaskets be fitted to the black bakelite thing the rod rides up and down in? I read somewhere that the bakelite thing should be free to move up and down and if I put three gaskets on the pump and the engine case, some of the sealer may get on the bakelite and bind it.

4. I've read about pressure and shims. Do I just install this pump with the gaskets that came with it or do I need to do something with shims?

I think that about covers my questions. I thank you for your answers.
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neil68
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Source for new fuel pump Reply with quote

1. You need the 4.25" (107.5 mm) rod for generator pump. If the supplier sent you a 100 mm (4") rod, then he might have sent you an alternator pump. Better ask him what's up with that?
2. Lower flat tube is the inlet from the fuel tank and the angled higher tube is the outlet to the carburetor.
3. I use Permatex 3H sealant, but there are others that will work. I seal the top and bottom of the Bakelite flange and gaskets (apply sparingly). The Bakelite flange does NOT move up & down...it is a guide. Only the pump rod moves. Fill the flange cavity with grease before installing the solid gasket on top.
4. The gaskets "are" the shims that you will use to adjust fuel pressure. Start with one or two and test with a gauge in a T off the pump to carb fuel line. Since there are so many variations of cases, distributor drive shaft pump cams, etc, each set up is different. Most pumps rebuilt with today's rebuild kits will read high, so you will probably need a couple gaskets to start with.
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drbacklash
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:51 am    Post subject: Re: Source for new fuel pump Reply with quote

Neil, thanks for the response. Based on what I "think" I know, the supplier sent a pump for a generator since the metal the push rod connects is recessed into the base of the pump. The one for the alternator sticks out more thus requiring the shorter rod. Checking with the supplier should clear this up. I don't have a pressure gauge so I guess I need to get one. I saw a youtube video by Chris Valone(?) who said the Bakelite holder needed to be able to move freely up and down on the mounting bolts. Don't know why, he didn't say. Maybe to be able to add or remove additional shims/gaskets to adjust at a later date.

Thanks again.


Ben
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 6:10 am    Post subject: Re: Source for new fuel pump Reply with quote

drbacklash wrote:
Neil, thanks for the response. Based on what I "think" I know, the supplier sent a pump for a generator since the metal the push rod connects is recessed into the base of the pump. The one for the alternator sticks out more thus requiring the shorter rod. Checking with the supplier should clear this up. I don't have a pressure gauge so I guess I need to get one. I saw a youtube video by Chris Valone(?) who said the Bakelite holder needed to be able to move freely up and down on the mounting bolts. Don't know why, he didn't say. Maybe to be able to add or remove additional shims/gaskets to adjust at a later date.

Thanks again.


Ben


Ben, those Pierburg pumps are generator pumps. That style was always for generators. The pumps that the tops are angled are for alternators and the pump actuator sticks out below the pump.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here's a picture of a fuel pressure gauge hooked up after I rebuilt a Pierburg pump on my 67. In the photo, the engine is running and the gauge is reading 3psi. I've rebuilt several of those pumps with NOS rebuild kits. I have one sealing gasket under the backlite stand and one sealing gasket under the pump. In all cases, I've had the pressure read between 2.7 and 3psi without adding or removing any additional gaskets.

Yes, invest in the fuel pressure gauge with a "T" in the kit. They can be purchased for $20-30 bucks. Bolt up your pump being sure to pack the bottom of the pump with good wheel bearing grease. Hook your fuel pressure gauge up and fire it up to check the pressure output. I doubt you'll have to mess with adding (shimming) gaskets unless the rebuilder used a suspect rebuild kit.
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drbacklash
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:54 am    Post subject: Re: Source for new fuel pump Reply with quote

Bill, great info! The picture is worth a 1,000 words. Let's see if I have the procedure correct. Dry mount the pump with the two gaskets that came with it. Connect the t-line to the carb with the guage connected. Start the engine and read the pressure. If the pressure is between 2 and 3 then I'm good. If its over four, add a new gasket under the bakelite. Retest. when good, remove the t-line, apply gasket sealer and install permanent line to the carb. Is this correct or have I complicated it too much?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:01 am    Post subject: Re: Source for new fuel pump Reply with quote

drbacklash wrote:
Bill, great info! The picture is worth a 1,000 words. Let's see if I have the procedure correct. Dry mount the pump with the two gaskets that came with it. Connect the t-line to the carb with the guage connected. Start the engine and read the pressure. If the pressure is between 2 and 3 then I'm good. If its over four, add a new gasket under the bakelite. Retest. when good, remove the t-line, apply gasket sealer and install permanent line to the carb. Is this correct or have I complicated it too much?


It wouldn't hurt to smear some permatex aviation on the gaskets before mounting the pump. Then, do as you typed here. Did I mention packing the pump actuator in grease at the bottom of the pump? Laughing If the fuel pump puts out more than 4psi, I'd be surprised.
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Tim Donahoe
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:50 am    Post subject: Re: Source for new fuel pump Reply with quote

You want the Bakelite flange to slip easily into the case because if it's a tight fit, when the engine heats up, the Bakelite guide can actually squeeze the pushrod. In that case, the symptoms can be like vapor lock.

This seems to be an issue with new, aftermarket, Bakelite flanges. The OEM ones are a better fit. If yours is a new flange and it doesn't slide in easily, simply sand a bit on the exterior of the stem and test fit--and sand some more, if necessary--until you can get an easy fit.

Tim
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Source for new fuel pump Reply with quote

Tim Donahoe wrote:
You want the Bakelite flange to slip easily into the case because if it's a tight fit, when the engine heats up, the Bakelite guide can actually squeeze the pushrod. In that case, the symptoms can be like vapor lock.

This seems to be an issue with new, aftermarket, Bakelite flanges. The OEM ones are a better fit. If yours is a new flange and it doesn't slide in easily, simply sand a bit on the exterior of the stem and test fit--and sand some more, if necessary--until you can get an easy fit.

Tim


If your looks original and is not leaking at the base, leave it alone. I've never experienced an original backlite flange being too tight and pinching the pump push rod. The original flanges can be a bear to remove sometimes though. Many people have broken them as they are old and fragile while trying to get them up and out with pieces falling into the engine.

That's why I NEVER remove unless I'm rebuilding the engine.
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**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
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drbacklash
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Source for new fuel pump Reply with quote

Great news! I got the new/old Pierburg fuel pump installed following all the helpful suggestions I received, primed the carb and gas lines, turned the ignition and, after a few pumps on the accelerator, she started right up! I let it idle a while and it smoothed out some but it is not at its best-yet. I have a heavy gas smell so I will have to track that down. While I had the carb out, I disabled the automatic choke per John Muier's suggestion. I took it out of my shop (first time in 4 years) and drove it a short distance. I think the left front rim is slightly rubbing the disk brake (spacers maybe) and the horn blows every now and then when I turn the steering wheel. And the generator light stayed on the entire trip.

I want to thank all of you that offered advice and assistance. This is not my first VW, I bought a 74 brand new so I've forgotten a lot over the past 30 years. That reminds me, what is the correct dwell angle for the VW? I bought a dwell meter and timing light and I'm going to have to remember how they work.

Thanks again!
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Source for new fuel pump Reply with quote

drbacklash wrote:
Great news! I got the new/old Pierburg fuel pump installed following all the helpful suggestions I received, primed the carb and gas lines, turned the ignition and, after a few pumps on the accelerator, she started right up! I let it idle a while and it smoothed out some but it is not at its best-yet. I have a heavy gas smell so I will have to track that down. While I had the carb out, I disabled the automatic choke per John Muier's suggestion. I took it out of my shop (first time in 4 years) and drove it a short distance. I think the left front rim is slightly rubbing the disk brake (spacers maybe) and the horn blows every now and then when I turn the steering wheel. And the generator light stayed on the entire trip.

I want to thank all of you that offered advice and assistance. This is not my first VW, I bought a 74 brand new so I've forgotten a lot over the past 30 years. That reminds me, what is the correct dwell angle for the VW? I bought a dwell meter and timing light and I'm going to have to remember how they work.

Thanks again!


47 to 48* on the dwell. I'd track the fuel smell down quickly. You don't need an engine fire. There's a chance that the carb diaphragms have dried up and are leaking as well as the 4 year old fuel hoses. I'd change them all.

That John Muir advice is antiquated and out of date in regards to the choke. They actually work very nicely if-

*The choke is adjusted correctly
*The engine has it's thermostat and flaps as it should to run it's best
*The carb manifold pre-heat pipe is clear and your running a stock muffler

You'd be money ahead to buy a Bentley book for your year bug. Its much more accurate than John's book. It has all the VW specs in it.
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Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
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**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
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**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours**
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Crazyguyla
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2016 10:56 am    Post subject: Re: Source for new fuel pump Reply with quote

neil68 wrote:
JP Products makes a nice stock replacement fuel pump. I believe CIP1.com carries them. Here's one from my spares:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I wonder why all the aftermarket "rebuildable" fuel pumps are based on the early 40 HP round top pump? I wonder if there is still a patent on the square top pump, which seems like a better pump.

My Brosol square top started failing, so I replaced it with one from Oreilly's. I was in a pinch. The stupid pivot pin keeps going for a walk and also looks like it's slowly oozing gas around the diaphragm. Can't tighten the screws to tight since they are sheet metal screws and not machine screws. The output nipple pulls out without much force. I have peened it back into place and doesn't seem to be leaking.

I want to rebuild my Brosol, but it doesn't have the plate on the base like the Pierbergs to facilitate the pump lever removal. Any ideas?

Marcus
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