#5 cylinder head mounting stud broken, Passenger side

[atmvanman]

I have not pulled the piston or cylinder, just the head. My neighbor has welded a nut on the stud four times now. We have got it to turn a little, but not much. I have tried heating the engine where the stud is seated, and while initially successful, the stud now no longer turns at all either way. I am currently trying to pull the cylinder and piston so I can heat the seat of the stud directly. Do I need special tools to do this? Should I pull the engine? This is my first vanagon and my first major project on the engine.
Thanks for any suggestions.

In this image you can see the broken stud with a nut welded on it.

[bluebus86]

four times welded, seems to me more weld might help, can the weld be done on both sides of the nut all around? maybe pull motor for better welder access? make sure a high grade nut is used, sounds like this is a tough one might be better to get to everything on a bench rather than in the van at this point.

what are you using to heat the case? hopefully a high heat oxygen acetalyne torch rather than a little MAP gas one, right?

problem is the big engine will suck away heat really fast, so you need a high heat source for a torch.

if the supper strength red locktite was used, well good luck. I had an e gine mount stud to remove and it was put in with that locktight, had to drill it our, then pick out the remains of the stud threads, torch did no good, It sucked big time. you may end up having to cut the stud and drill it out, and that wont be easy given acess issues.

anyway try to weld the nut all around both sides and see if that will help, dont put any side loads on the stud as that can break it


good luck
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[Jwpaul]

My recommendation:

Heat, PB Blaster(+ a little soaking time), and a jam nut if you have enough threads to get one on. In my experience, a jam nut (second nut tightened down onto the first one and then put a wrench on the first one) can survive more torque than a weld. Also a little shock while the stud is under tension could help.

Good luck!

-JP
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'82 Westy - 2.0L ABA

[bluebus86]

[atmvanman]

It's the number five stud, as per torque order. The stud snapped in the middle, so no jam nut possible. Using map gas. Might be able to get high heat acetalyne tomorrow. Is it hard to pull the piston with the engine still in the van?

[Terry Kay]

<<< PB Blaster(+ a little soaking time), and a jam nut if you have enough threads to get one on. >>>

If a guy has a bunch of time on his hands,-- months--- and a big tub to immerse the entire engine--maybe, just maybe it might break loose.
I wouldn't waste the time or the product with this fruitless attempt.
PB won't reverse an electroletical frozen head stud.
It's locked up tight -dissimilar metal problem.

<<<In my experience, a jam nut (second nut tightened down onto the first one and then put a wrench on the first one) can survive more torque than a weld. >>>

This is really funny.
If the weld breaks, you shouldn't be doing any welding.
Poor penetration would be the culprit.
Take a welding class, or perhaps get a bigger mig welder.


<< Also a little shock while the stud is under tension could help.>>

An air impact will do one of three things ;
Snap what's left of the stud, strip the threads, or remove it, along with and in addition to a heated case.
Hand held impact driver may, may not work, the stud is too long to accept the impacts intensions of backing the stuck stud out.
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T.K.

[Jwpaul]

Valid criticism TK, but what I think would be even more helpful is some alternate solutions to the problem at hand.

I wasn't thinking an impact wrench, but more likely a small ball peen hammer to tap on the wrench you get on there.

Like bluebus86, I have used a drill/a screw extractor/tap with some success. Best to do that on a bench. Hopefully it won't/didn't come to that.

JP
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'82 Westy - 2.0L ABA

[Terry Kay]

OK.
Getting a little more creative, yank the engine, get it right in front of you on a bench, weld a nut on the top of the snapped off stud, get a box wrench on the nut, and heat up the aluminum that's holding the stud in the case with an oxy-acetylene torch to get it to release.

If you need this kinda map, perhaps you should consider jobbing this operation out to get it done.

Something to consider.
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T.K.

[Jwpaul]

Yeah, but what fun is that? Isn't this a place where those who don't yet know how can get friendly advice and encouragement from those who do? And learn something on the way?

Good luck atmvanman...let us know how you resolve it!

JP
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'82 Westy - 2.0L ABA

[Robw_z]

When I went through this the engine was out of the van. Pulling the cylinder and recompressing the rings to put it back on is possible, but it takes a sort of zen-like patience with a little pick and an easily made custom ring compressor tool(a small strip of galvanized steel you can buy at Home Depot, bent around the piston to form a little compressor).

We heated the base of the stud with propane for a considerable period of time, put a brand new pair of vice-grips(clamped on with He-Man strength) on the end of the stud, and turned it out very slowly. Thank God it came out.

-Rob

[jberger]

You have nothing to lose at this point.. Keep welding nuts on there and snapping them off. It will always snap at the weld or it will back out. I guarantee it will come out. If not, you will have to remove the cylinder and piston anyway to apply heat to the area directly. No way to apply sufficient heat there without removing them.. Those studs are in there very tight, but they do come out. I use an impact gun, aircat... Weld rat-a-tat repeat.. always repeat.

[atmvanman]

So you are saying just keep heating from the outside? The last four times I applied heat, 20 minutes twice, 30 minutes twice, i got no movement. It has turned. There is thread protrusion, so no lock tight. Right now I can't get it to move in either direction. Using an impact wrench at a low setting while heating just to rattle it a bit. It's summer and camping season and I'm sitting here all because of a manufacturing default on a head gasket and a cracked stud. Cuss words come to mind.

[bluebus86]

[Snort]

[atmvanman]

VICTORY!! Went out this morning to do what I have done 20+ times to that stud. Apply PB Blaster, let soak, apply more, let soak, try to turn stud, apply heat, try to turn stud, repeat. Except today when I tried to turn, it turned! No heat needed! Fucking camping for the Fourth! Thanks to all who replied with ideas. This site rocks. Now. reassembly time.

[MarkWard]

Why did the stud break in the first place? If you were assembling the engine and one stud failed while torqueing, you may want to consider replacing all of them. You may go through this exercise and snap another one. Glad you got it out.
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[atmvanman]

Truth be told, I got in a hurry and torqued to Foot lbs instead of Nm. Still shouldn't have snapped the stud. My next door neighbor, who has a degree in metallurgy and used to inspect parts for a living, said he could see a small failure in the stud. Said that it was when not if that stud broke. He inspected the rest of the studs and thinks they are okay to go. I am trying to get this engine to last two more years, then I am getting a new one.

[atmvanman]

Anyone have any idea what the torque is on the mounting stud for a head? I can't find the info anywhere.

[Snort]

Bentley says 7#, then 30#, then 37#. Bentley also cautions against using click style torque wrench for this task, use only beam wrench. Many other folks using this site support that caution. Some have reported snapping head studs using click style wrench. Hmmm....

[atmvanman]

That's for the nut that attaches to the end of the stud. I'm trying to find the torque of the stud itself. I'm thinking minimum same as nut at the end, right?