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70_clementine_vert Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 122 Location: Port Orchard, Washington
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:21 am Post subject: Ignition situation |
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Hi all,
I have a 70 standard vert. I have rebuilt the car and have had it on the road for about three years. But only in the summer because I have not finished the vert top.
I have a starting issue. Most of the time it starts fine but once in a while if it does not start on the first crank the next time I turn the key there is nothing. No turning over no nothing. If I leave the car alone for a period of time and come back is will turn over and start.
So far I have never been stuck but I would like to know what is causing this. Is it a coil or regulator issue?
Thanks. _________________ "In any moment of decision the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing."
Roosevelt, T.R. |
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Volks Wagen Samba Member
Joined: February 13, 2013 Posts: 2926 Location: Germany
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:28 am Post subject: Re: Ignition situation |
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Maybe the starter. Is there a click from it? Are the connections to it clean? Maybe you can get it tested... _________________ 1973 1303 with AB-motor - sporadic
reconstruction as time permits, 1986 ex-Bundeswehr Doka - on the road again.
I'm definitely, probably, the worlds greatest lover.
Aithníonn ciaróg ciaróg eile. |
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air-h2o-air Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2015 Posts: 579
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Ignition situation |
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when it is in no crank mode....do the idiot lights in speedo light? if not bad ig switch or bad connections at battery or fuse box |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24671 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition situation |
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Start cleaning electrical connections so they are shiny clean. Do this on BOTH ends of both battery cables and same for the body to transaxle ground cable. Apply dielectric grease to each connection to prevent future corrosion for as long as possible by keeping salt and oxygen away for as long as possible. Replace any of those cables if any doubt of condition or the battery cables have those battery clamps that bolt/clamp onto the end of the old cable.
Coil problem is not going to stop the starter from turning over the engine. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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60ragtop Bonneville Belt Bitch
Joined: March 13, 2006 Posts: 7800 Location: Big Wonderful WYO 82401
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition situation |
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sometimes you just need one of those hotly debated cold start relays installed to insure the starter is getting the correct voltage once you've check out the complete system _________________ Rick
Certified Mechanic by the State of Michigan in 1977
ASA certified in 1987
Certified Hunter Wheel Alignment Master Technician 1986
tasb wrote: |
I've restored a large number too, but I don't toot my horn quite as loud.
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sb001 wrote: |
maybe he just snapped cause his car sucked |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24671 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition situation |
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60ragtop wrote: |
sometimes you just need one of those hotly debated cold start relays installed to insure the starter is getting the correct voltage once you've check out the complete system |
Have only seen that once due to DPO shorted out the large wire from ignition switch to the starter solenoid. Resulted in a wire fried down to a smaller wire that could not provide the amperage needed.
For the several other hundreds of VW we have dealt with, no need for a relay. Better to have an electrical system that works as it should over the whole wiring system. Having brighter lights, louder horn, faster wipers, etc. is worth taking a little time and work to get it right.
Besides there are plenty of electrical starting problems the relay will not solve. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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60ragtop Bonneville Belt Bitch
Joined: March 13, 2006 Posts: 7800 Location: Big Wonderful WYO 82401
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:40 am Post subject: Re: Ignition situation |
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as stated a hotly debated topic either you like to use them or you don't.
Just look at the internals of an aftermarket ignition switch (or read up on the the junk ones now offered), and you'll see why some people like to install them once you have checked out everything else in the system. _________________ Rick
Certified Mechanic by the State of Michigan in 1977
ASA certified in 1987
Certified Hunter Wheel Alignment Master Technician 1986
tasb wrote: |
I've restored a large number too, but I don't toot my horn quite as loud.
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sb001 wrote: |
maybe he just snapped cause his car sucked |
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Chochobeef Samba Member
Joined: May 01, 2013 Posts: 811 Location: Ft. Worth, Texas
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:33 am Post subject: Re: Ignition situation |
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60ragtop wrote: |
as stated a hotly debated topic either you like to use them or you don't.
Just look at the internals of an aftermarket ignition switch (or read up on the the junk ones now offered), and you'll see why some people like to install them once you have checked out everything else in the system. |
Its only debated because some people don't understand the true purpose of the relay. It is to reduce the load on the ignition switch so that you A.) Don't burn it up and B.) Provide clean power to the starter. I see no problems with either of those. I'm sure there are other beneficial electrical factors, but those were my 2 main points to installing one. I've never had an issue starting the car with the original ignition switch, however I know eventually I need to take it apart as there is a significant drop in power to the X circuit from years and years of transmitting full power through by the PO.
Right or wrong, do what you will to your car and either take the advice with a grain of salt or try it out and see if it works for you. |
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DeathTrap Samba Member
Joined: February 26, 2004 Posts: 1757 Location: Sacramento/Vermont
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:01 am Post subject: Re: Ignition situation |
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You already have a start relay
It's called the solenoid
It's built into every starter |
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Frank Bassman Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2012 Posts: 892 Location: Miami
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Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2016 7:29 am Post subject: Re: Ignition situation |
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FWIW, I had this same issue. I bought the cheapest Ford started relay I could at auto zone. This was done AFTER I determined the ignition switch was starting to go. It would still pass current, just not enough.
I think it was like 15 bucks later and some very BASIC wiring under the rear seat and the problem has gone away for 4 years, and now if the car doesn't start it is anything but a starter problem. Sure, it wasn't factory VW, but it is electrically a great modification to do if you don't feel like taking out the old switch and all the wires that it entails to do so.
Do it before your ignition switch dies completely... and forget about it.
-Frank |
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70_clementine_vert Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 122 Location: Port Orchard, Washington
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:58 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition situation |
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Thanks Everyone!
The car has been sitting for a few weeks now as I have not had time to look at it. I did drive it for quite a while and the starting problem was intermittent. But 3 weeks ago it was constant and still is. Had some friends push start me to get it home and there is has set.
I did lift it up this evening to get under it and check the connections to the solenoid and the starter. They seemed fine. The wiring is new when I restored the car 2 years ago.
I will try to run down all of the things you all listed. I hate electrical problems. Not my specialty.
_________________ "In any moment of decision the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing."
Roosevelt, T.R. |
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70_clementine_vert Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 122 Location: Port Orchard, Washington
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition situation |
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air-h2o-air wrote: |
when it is in no crank mode....do the idiot lights in speedo light? if not bad ig switch or bad connections at battery or fuse box |
Yes they do. So the switch must be good. _________________ "In any moment of decision the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing."
Roosevelt, T.R. |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24671 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:05 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition situation |
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ignition switch can still be bad. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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sb001 Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 10399 Location: NW Arkansas
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:19 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition situation |
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Hi clementine,
I have had the exact same problem as you in the past- random no start, turn the key and nothing. (Even now, if I let the car sit for say a week or so while I am working on the engine or what have you, often it won't start again when I turn the key.)
But, every single time it does this, I lift up the back seat and find the wire on the driver's side rear floor going to the starter, where it passes through a plastic connector. I unplug the side of the wire from that connector that goes through the floor pan to the starter, and then I find the wire coming from the battery + terminal across the rear floor of the car over to the voltage regulator, and unplug it from the regulator. Then I touch those two wires together. This creates a short circuit from the battery to the starter using a MUCH shorter path, it will "JOLT" the starter to life and crank the engine every time. (Car won't start because you aren't feeding power to the coil, but it will definitely crank over.) Once you do this a couple times, then plug everything back in as before and try to start the car, watch her fire right up.
The funny thing is every time I do this, I never have to worry about the car not starting again unless I leave it sitting for a long time again. It's almost like a new lease on life for the starter. _________________ I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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70_clementine_vert Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 122 Location: Port Orchard, Washington
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Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition situation |
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[quote="Eric&Barb"]Start cleaning electrical connections so they are shiny clean. Do this on BOTH ends of both battery cables and same for the body to transaxle ground cable.quote]
BINGO! That was it.
It is getting dark and tough to see but the negative cable connection to the body was a bit grimy. I could not find my tube of dialectic grease but I sanded it down and reattached and she fired right up! Awesome.
I am going to have to clean it better soon.
Well, that was an easy and inexpesive fix.[/img] _________________ "In any moment of decision the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing."
Roosevelt, T.R. |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24671 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:07 am Post subject: Re: Ignition situation |
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Great to hear! A starter relay would not have fixed that, among other possible problems. Vaseline will do the same in a pinch, maybe not as long term effective.
Should be able to start it up after almost a month if all the connections are good and clean. If you want your battery to last 8 to 10 years best to connect up a battery minder if you know it is going to sit for more than a week.
When in the USAF back in the 1980s went home for 29 days straight. Drove from Abilene TX to Dallas/Ft. Worth to catch a jet to the Seattle area. Happened to have a cousin in the Dallas area and he let me park my VW at his place. Cousin said he would take the VW for a drive but never did. Did this two different years first time with an all original 1970 auto-stick bug and next year with 1963 restored KG. Turned out cousin did not drive either, and was very pleasantly surprised that after about ten seconds of turning over the engine to pump fuel to the dry carb, the engine fired right up. Both did not have any added in starter relays. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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70_clementine_vert Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 122 Location: Port Orchard, Washington
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:28 am Post subject: Re: Ignition situation |
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Well since you are in Olympia you know that I don't drive this car in the winter without a top.
So it is parked all winter. Every spring I have been able to start her with some cajoling, pumping the gas and turning her over for long periods. I am always amazed. But when I drive it all the time it starts beautifully first time. It is so much fun to drive.
My mother was born in Olympia and she and my father moved back to the Rochester area after dad retired from Boeing.
I think this summer I will get the top finally. I would like to make this my daily driver.
Thanks again. _________________ "In any moment of decision the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing."
Roosevelt, T.R. |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24671 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:02 am Post subject: Re: Ignition situation |
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Glad to help!
Next year try removing the fuel line off the fuel pump that goes to the carb. Use a slot tip screwdriver to push off the fuel line, instead of yanking it off by hand and sooner or later loosening the pipe in the carb body. Cut a plastic fuel filter into a fuel proof funnel. Use the funnel to get about 1/4 cup of fuel into the carb and a little will drip back into the fuel pump to prime it, when you reattach the fuel line there. That should get it to fire right up and cause you less time and wear on the starter.
Barb had an Aunt Myrtle in Rochester years ago. Barb's Dad help build a new house for Myrtle, so Barb has some fond memories of the area. Such a small town that your Mom might have known or recognized Myrtle.
We are about seven miles from Rochester. Have wanted to get down to there to explore the back roads... _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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70_clementine_vert Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 122 Location: Port Orchard, Washington
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Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition situation |
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Still having starting issues. I loaned our van to some friends who had their 6th kid and now it has forced me to make my VW my daily driver. It still is doing the phantom non starting thing. As previously stated I got a new ground wire from battery to body bolt and that seemed to help for a while.
I replaced the ignition switch and that worked for a while.
I took off the voltage regulator and sanded down the contacts in the points, sanded the contacts for the wires and that did NOTHING.
I have installed a pertronix electronic ignition and it has been running great but I put the points back in to see if the electronic ignition was causing my problem and that was not it at all so I reinstalled the electronic ignition.
I just ordered a new voltage regulator online to try that as a fix. It should come in a few days. I hope that is the issue.
What typically happens is that I turn the key and nothing happens but if I leave it on it will eventually fire. So there is a delay. But now there is nothing. No delay. No turning over.
I have removed my back seat and use my jumper cables to start the car from the positive terminal to the wire that goes to the starter. So I have pretty much eliminated everything from the voltage regulator back to the motor. So I can drive the car which is good because it is my only source of transportation right now.
Can anyone confirm that the regulator can be at fault with this delay and no non starting 70 bug?
Thanks _________________ "In any moment of decision the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing."
Roosevelt, T.R. |
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Eric&Barb Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004 Posts: 24671 Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
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Posted: Mon May 22, 2017 9:19 pm Post subject: Re: Ignition situation |
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Regulator just regulates voltage to the battery. Unless you had a massive short back there and obvious wiring fire, the regulator has nothing to do with it.
If you removed the generator and regulator, and had a fully charged battery the starter is going to still start the engine. _________________ In Stereo, Where Available! |
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