Engine Noob (1600dp Questions)

[Dubskii]

Let me start off by saying I am not an engine guy. I have been reading like crazy to try and bone up but not sure if it is doing any good...Anyway, I may have gone about things slightly wrong but I recently had a stockish 1600dp built for me by a local shop. It has the following:

* 009 Dist with a 34 Pict 3 carb (From what I read these two are not a good pairing)

* Electronic ignition

* 1 1/2" merged A1 Sidewinder exhaust (Prob overkill)

The rest I was told is stock. I kind of regret going this direction and should have maybe opted for a larger engine although the dual carb thing frightens me.

I use it only on the weekend to putt around town and occasionaly drive it to work. I am in the process of lowering my bus 3.5" up front with 185/55/15 and offset spring plates, etc with 195/60/15 in the rear with a FF tranny with 3.88 R&P and an 0.82 4th (I believe).

Question is how can I wake it up without tearing into the engine? Is it dual carbs (HPMX 40s)? Is it a better single carb/dist combo? Or What?

With this current engine/trans setup, assuming I don't change anything out, would it be better to run with 195/65/15 in the rears to lower the rpms?

I am all over the place I know but I am looking for guidance.

Thanks!
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[67jason]

put dual carbs on it. 36 dellorto DRLA's would be my first choice, second choice would be a set of kadrons or 40 IDF's. not a big fan on hpmx carbs - real webers would be better. use good linkage, i dislike common hexbar linkage for a variety of reasons, i recommend csp push-pull, berg linkage or vinatage speed push-pull linkage.
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[andk5591]

You have the wrong combo and when you add in your new transaxle, its going to make a dog even worse.

First - quite being afraid of the engine - you can't screw it up worse than it is. And you don't have to tear it completely down, you just need to put together components that will work better together for your needs.

#1 you have a heavy vehicle and you are putting in taller gears, so you need to enhance low end torque or else you will be able to push the bus faster than the engine will do on acceleration. Plus you need an increase in power in general. So, yeah, a bigger engine would be the smart thing to do, BUT you can get a lot out of a stock 1600. This is my recipe for a mild 1600 that is good for around 70 HP on the crank.

Quality 1 3/8" header. Tri Mill dual tip, Bugpack single quiet pack or hideaway are ones I have run on the dyno. Big tubes hurt your low end.

Mild performance heads or ratio rockers. A better head would be preferred - like port matched stock or something like Mofoco Super Streets. You want your air/fule to be able to get into and out of the combustion chamber.

Last part is carburator. I personally like dual Kads, but there are other options. Kads are simple and there are plenty of "how to's" on setting them up properly. There are a couple common things that need addressed and once done, they are easy to set up. This last piece delivers more air and fuel for more power.

If you skip any part of this, you will not realize the benefit of the rest. None of this is rocket science - the technology has been around for over 100 years....
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[spencerfvee]

hi I just don't understand why you are going to a 3.88 ring gear with a 82 4th gear. in a heavy bus .that you said your only driving around town on weekends and some times to work ..that 3.88 is going to kill any xtra power you are after .you don't need a 3.88 ring gear . for what your using your bus for. to me its just a waist of your money and time putting it in your bus .right now your not happy with the power you have in the bus with the stock bus trans you have now . . wait till you put that 3.88 gear with the 82 4th gear in .your going to be realy unhappy with the way it runs . your motors going to run hot on the free way because you wont have the right rpms to cool your motor to 65mph to 70mph did you rejet the 34 pict carb with a 130 to 132 main jet .if you did not you are running a lean motor .good luck just my two cents take it or leave it spencerfvee

[slalombuggy]

1 3/8 would be a better choice for exhaust. Don't be afraid of HPMX carbs, they are the best out there right now. I'd pick those over a 30 year old set of used Dells any day. As others have said, you are geared WAY too tall. I run a 3.88,82 combo in my race car at Bonneville, you don`t need that in a bus. A stock 4.12 box will be perfect for what you are doing with it. If you have already bought and paid for the transaxle you could try running a shorter tire to gain back some low end grunt.

brad

[Dubskii]

So I need to clarify a few things. My engine specs are as specified in my original post. The exhaust I have is a A1 Sidewinder header and muffler set. This morning I measured the OD of the tubes to be 1 1/2".

As for the transmission. I already have the FF trans with the 3.88 R&P and 0.89 4th and small nut RGBs installed. As I mentioned, I am lowering my bus in the back which will get rid of the small nut RBGs and hopefully open it up a bit. My bus, I feel, idles and runs fine. It just lacks power.

1) Are exhaust system sizes quoted on OD?
2) What R&P and 4th is best for a bus (4.12 and 0.82)?
3) All of the improvements stated by others sounds almost as expensive as selling my motor and buying a 1776 which I am leaning towards doing.
4) Thoughts on this motor? http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1267907
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[DeathBySnuSnu]

Not a bus expert at all here.....

You may not be ideal but probably drivable with the reduction boxes installed. Once they are removed that gearing will be tall. Takes a lot of motor to pull that gear.
If I was to straight axle a bus I would be thinking
1.32 third
.93 fourth
4.12 ring and pinion
Big motor 2000cc plus

[Danwvw]

I have played with stock DP engines in my Bay Window Bus over the years and among other things tried 1.25 Ratio Rockers, 1 3/8 header, 1 1/2" header then wound up rebuilding a engine as a 1.8 liter type 1 dual port with much more cam and the Dual Dellorto 36mm Carburetors.

I have to say even though the 1.25 ratio rockers helped with the stock cam and a PICT 34 carb and the 1 3/8" header there is no comparison to running Dual carbs and a little more cam and stroke.
You can run 1.25 ratio rockers with solid rocker shafts but the pushrods will hit the stock vw pushrod tubes and eventually ware both the rods and the tubes there so you will need CB-Performance Racing Pushrod tubes to use ratio rockers.

With the PICT 34 it was a mistake to run the larger 1 1/2" headers as it made the bus cold blooded and difficult to take off in, However I run 1 1/2 headers on the Dual carb engine ok.

With a bus it's about torque and low end so anything you do that reduces low end or torque just makes it more difficult to drive around town while I must say that the 1.25 ratio rockers and the 1 1/2" header did help the top speed of the stock engine in the bus slightly.

One thing you could do is run the dual carbs with a Bus cam something like the W-100 or Webcam grind 218/119.

Currently I am playing with the Zenith NDIX carb as a single to replace the PICT 34 Carb on the Stock 1600 DP Bus engine and this engine seems to be a good combination too. It has the W-100 Cam but a stock exhaust system and valve train. (Well almost, Has L3 heads with Single HD springs etc. 88's)
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[modok]

[mark tucker]

duel crabs are simple, just ask any questions you need to. the ex should be fine but is a tad over kill.yes you should of built a bigger motor but you didnt so. lets figure out what you have.what it's doing and the best corse of action. duel dell's or webbers would be nice.dont go big there just 36 or 40's is fine. as for the dist..I like the 009.but it does need recurving 99% of the time or it will have a stumble. I have never tried to use a vw crab so Im out.

[spencerfvee]

hi sorry I did not know you had the reduction gears on your bus .you said your going to lower the bus. one of my good friend aaron. who owns wide five sells lowering kits for the old buses .I don't know if his lowering kits are for buses with reduction gears .it would be nice if you could keep the reduction gears .and lower the bus the way you want it . I don't know much about busses . I do know talking to aaron most of the guys in ohio run 1600cc motors in there split busses. because the bigger motor tend to over heat . lack of air getting to the motor to cool it .so if you do go bigger don't go to big . I have built a lot of 1600cc motors. I like the cam you have and I like the 1 1/2 header. I am not a big fan of the 009 dizy but they can be made to work .like the guys have been telling you dual carbs help a lot I think if you would have used the 4.125 ring gear you would have liked your motor better finding the right gear makes driving a bug or bus more fun .remember your driving a big box down the road you get into a windy day and you would wish you had a lower gear box . when VW put the lower gear in the busses they new the small vw motor needed all the help it could get . again hope you get the motor right and enjoy your bus spencerfvee

[slalombuggy]

Just to clarify, you do know you just can't pull the reduction boxes off and put in straight axles right? I would keep the reduction boxes until you have some cash to build a bigger motor. you're going to have a tough time pulling 4th gear with a small motor.

brad

[Dubskii]

So if I want to keep my 3.88 R&P and 0.89 4th FF trans I need to definitely juice up my engine. So the question is dump approx $1k or so for duals and heads or approx $2k for a larger motor once I sell mine and get that cash. It seems the larger motor would be the ideal choice. That then begs a few more questions...Looking at the stroke/bore chart do I go with the following:

1) 90.5 P&Cs and run a 69mm crank (1776cc)
2) 90.5 P&Cs and run a 74mm crank (1903cc)
3) 90.5 P&Cs and run a 76mm crank (1955cc)
4) Again thoughts on this engine

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1267907

and change the crank with any of the above? I believe the cost of the different cranks is very minimal. Or keep the 69mm crank and run thick wall 92s (1835cc)?

As for the lowering of the rear, yes there are a few more things to do not just pull the RGBs. I have the offset spring plates, I still need all of the 68 or later bug long axles, tubes and all the brake components. R&P needs to be flipped as well.
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[modok]

What are they 1.26 ratio? so do the math
1585x 1.26=1997

2007 cc is doable with stock heads. Usually I say stroker cranks are cheaper than custom gears....maybe it's true. i'd rather have both

[andk5591]

a 1914 is a nice grunt engine and doesnt require a custom crank.....Just saying.
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them...

[mikedjames]

For a bit more grunt get rid of the 009 distributor and fit any SVDA. This will help the engine pick up.
And the engine will happily run at 4200-4500 rpm all day long and unhappiliy into a high geared transmission like a Freeway Flyer.

Sell the transmission and buy a stock one and use the spare cash to buy an SVDA..
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Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.

1979 Westerly GK24 24 foot racer/cruiser yacht Forethought of Gosport.
1973 wooden Pacer sailing dinghy

[Dubskii]

So it sounds like the consensus is to get a stock trans 4.12r&p, 0.82 4th and keep my 1600dp and maybe juice it up a bit (dual carbs,etc).

Or get a much larger engine (2000cc on up) and keep the FF 3.88r&p, 0.89 4th.

Sound about right?
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[modok]

Both those add up nearly the same. If you won't be going over 50 mph then I guess it doesen't matter. If it's just all about LOOKS and just needs to be able to get on and off the trailer then don't sweat it, being able to actually drive it just around town is better than many. I put a CHROME driveshaft together for this guy, and it was a mess, totally screwed up, but he "says put it together anyway, I don't even put oil in the engine, it's never going to actually drive" .


My bus had a .82 fourth, and a 5.375 ring and pinion, and I didn't have any complaints about fourth, I thought it was about right. I did feel third was slightly too low.

They way you can figure gear ratios is to use ratios, because, well.....seems self explanatory.
.82x5.375/4.12=1.07, so , if you use a 4.12 then I would want a 1.04 4th, and you can do that math to compare any ratio.

[Dubskii]

Oh believe me, my bus is no trailer queen. I drive the shit out of it now, want to continue to do so while having the fun with it. I think I am too far down the road with the trans and prob just need man up, quit talking about it and goose the engine to match. I will talk with the trans/engine builder soon.

I really appreciate everyone's opinions and insight and will post my decision when it is made.

Thanks!
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[Dubskii]

Well, I took the plunge and went from a single carbed 1600dp to a 2074cc beast and at this point I couldn't be happier! I feel I was robbed of a year of enjoyment with the 1600dp with no one to blame but myself.

Specs:
Full flow AS41 case with doghouse cooler
78mm CW Crank
AAs 92 Thick walled P&Cs
40x35.5 Empi GTV heads with hi rev springs chromoly retainers
Engle 120 camshaft
Dual HPMX 40s
Stock ratioed rockers with swivel feet
Lightened and balanced 8 doweled flywheel
009 distributer with Compufire electronic ignition
8:1 compression
1.5" A1 header and bus exhaust
30mm HD Schadek oil pump

It is paired with a FF transaxle with the 3.88 R&P with a 0.89 4th. No more small nut RGBs to slow me down either!

This thing is so much fun to drive now! Gets up and goes with ease and has tons of power.

Couple of things I noted from reading different threads...the oil pump is large and the builder likes to run 20w50 oil. I mentioned this to him and he said that is what he runs in all of his personal air-cooled engines and all the engines he builds without a problem. However, I think I may run a thinner oil (i.e. 10w30). Thoughts? Secondly, I want to cover the oil lines that run between the header to the filter with a heat resistant tubing. Thoughts on what to get?
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