Problem getting my early '61 beetle running.

[Ragsy'61]

Hello I hope somone can help me I have a '61 beetle (made sept 1960) I am currently trying to get my engine running but am failing. I think it is a wiring issue as it has ran out of the car. The spark at the distributor is poor, I have replaced points, plugs, ht leads, coil and starter but to no avail. I can't find a voltage regulator anywhere, could this be the issue? Any suggestions greatly welcomed.

[flyboy161]

Chances are no, it is not the regulator. But, a weak battery could. Cause it. Has this car ever run? I mean in awhile.
_________________
My father's 1970 Beetle-
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=603879

The 1964...Diamond in the rough
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612776

My 1958 Morocco Bug-
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=611483

[Sharp64]

6 volt or 12v? If 6 volt have you gone through and checked all your connections? 6 volt are very susceptible to low juice due to corrosion/oxidation of the terminals. Look up and print out a wiring diagram from the technical section and start cleaning. You also need a Volt Ohm Meter to see where you're losing spark if that's the case. Posting up nice clear pics will help as well to see if anything looks wrong. Has the car been sitting for some time? It may need more things gone through. More info will help you get your answers. Also use the search feature to help yourself help yourself. Lots of good info here and most questions have been addressed before.

[Abscate]

[Ragsy'61]

Hi, Engine has nevr run in the car, which when I bought it 4 years ago had no engine fitted.I am guessing it has been run on 12volts as there is is voltage dropper wired into the wiper motor. I will try cleaning the connections and let you know ic I.have any joy. Battery has been replaced with a new one but made no.difference.

[Sharp64]

Pictures will help determine if it's running a 12v alternator or not. Are you using a 12v battery? You need to start checking voltage within the system to figure out if you losing power. Just guessing and cleaning doesn't cut it. In fact if it's 12v, it's less important for the connections to be clean.

[Ragsy'61]

It is a 12v battery and alternater. I will get some pic's on to see if anything obvious is visable. If I check voltage what zhould it be either side of the coil? I guess 12v in but how much out?

[flyboy161]

Alternator has a built in regulator.

12V in, 12 Volts out on the coil, unless the points are closed and then it's 0 volts on the wire going to the distributor. Condenser
_________________
My father's 1970 Beetle-
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=603879

The 1964...Diamond in the rough
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612776

My 1958 Morocco Bug-
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=611483

[bluebus86]

yeah, check voltage going into primary of spark coil, you should have close to full battery voltage there, if not, suspect wiring problem between key switch and coil, poor engine grounding, or poor connection between battery and key switch.


poor spark as you saw is the clue. you need to figure why spark is poor, check the voltage to the coil as a first step.


also how is the condensor on the dizzie? dont see that being replaced. if could be leaky electrically speaking. you can test for leakage with an ohm meter across it. first discharge it by shorting to ground, by disconnecting the wire and touch it to tbe outsdie case of the condensor, then with an ohm meter set to low scale, test between the wire and case. ohm meter needle should breifly defect to high ohms, then return to zero. if it dont act like this, then you need to replace the condensor with a new one.


good luck
_________________
Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information

Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022

[Ragsy'61]

Ok I have now checked the voltage at the coil and it is 12v, condenser is brand new but checked it any way and is ok. However when i gounded the volt meter on the engine it was next to no reading, but grounded on the car body it's fine. Is this correct?

[sjbartnik]

That tells me you need to check the ground strap between the transaxle and the body. The engine should be grounded via that strap.
_________________
1965 Volkswagen 1500 Variant S
2000 Kawasaki W650

[devs]

I agree with sjbartnik. Check and clean and replace the earth strap between the tranny and the engine as well as ensuring that your earth from the battery to the body is really clean.

If needs be, run a separate earth from the battery to the engine using jump leads.

I've just gone through the same process after firing up an engine that hadn't been run in 20 years.

Check your coil too, despite it being new. I purchased a new one and it was duff out of the box. Easiest way is to do this is to eliminate the dizzy/points as the points only fire the coil when they're closed. To check the coil:

Retain positive lead (+ / 15) to coil.
Remove negative lead from the coil that goes to the points
Retain the HT lead in the coil, however take other end out of the dizzy and hold it close to an earth point on the engine .
Connect a new lead to the negative side of the coil and with the ignition on earth it on the engine.
The HT lead you're holding should spark.

This will prove that you have a spark at the coil, allowing you to then investigate the dizzy to ensure that it's distributing the spark successfully (or not at all).

Get yourself some clear plastic spark plug boots too to enable you to check the spark at the plug too, which if working in the garage alone is a must once you have a mirror in place (or video it).

.... just found this .... easier to see a visual:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJYJ3KvPhhY

[grandpa pete]

Where is " Swindon "
_________________
63 two fold rag
66 sedan delivery Type 6

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=569619&highlight=sedan+delivery

[Ragsy'61]

Hello again, I have now replaced the earth strap from my gear box to body. I now have a voltage reading at the coil of 10.6 volts earthed to the engine block but now have 0.3 volts earthed to the body?? Is this right? Voltage at battery is 12.7 volts. I will take some photo's of my wiring in the engine and behind the dash tomorrow and post to see if it helps. I did have the alternator light on my dash when I started trying to get the engine running but now nothing.
Greatful of all suggestions.
Many thanks.
Swindon is about 40miles from Bristol.

[Ragsy'61]

Hope these photos might help.
Cheers

[flyboy161]

Okay, thanks for the pictures.

First of all that is a 12 volt alternator that has an EXTERNAL regulator. I was wrong. Sorry, pics help.

Second, that alternator is wired wrong and I mean really wrong.

So, let's find the regulator. Follow the red wires. The one going to the right should go to the starter or the battery the one that goes left is probably going to the regulator though it is not supposed to.

So it looks like the four terminals are marked on top of the alternator.
B+ battery
D+ is where your gen light is connected
D- nothing
DF nothing

The way your alternator is wired you've got no charging going on, battery power comes along and "excites" the alternator, but then goes around the long way to the headlight switch and then feeds the fuse block, fuse 8, back to ignition switch, yatta yatta.

D+ is AC voltage, goes around the long way to the dash, feeds the red light, back through the center black wire on the speedo to fuse 1, which feeds your coil.

AC AND DC DON'T MIX!!!

You have to have a voltage regulator in that circuit or it'll never start. It might be under the back seat, I hope. But follow that red wire back to the headlight switch. If there is no voltage regulator, you're going to need one.

But, let's try an experiment. Disconnect the D+ wire off the alternator, and try and start the car. It'll either start or it won't.

Also, .3V earth to ground? That is a voltage drop which means a dirty ground.

Your ignition switch wires are dirty. When the connectors look dark bronze they are dirty. They should look like shiny brass. As a matter of fact they should all look like shiny brass, all over the car. START CLEANING! Everywhere there is a voltage drop, there is a dirty, corroded connector.
_________________
My father's 1970 Beetle-
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=603879

The 1964...Diamond in the rough
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612776

My 1958 Morocco Bug-
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=611483

[flyboy161]

Here is a rough schematic of proper alternator wiring

And I stand corrected, your gen light is connected to D-

Stil AC voltage
_________________
My father's 1970 Beetle-
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=603879

The 1964...Diamond in the rough
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=612776

My 1958 Morocco Bug-
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=611483

[dcarlson12]

I don't know if I am speaking out of turn. Perhaps your engine compartment 'assembly work' is not complete.
i.e.I see no hoses/ducting from the fan shroud to the holes in the tin where heater connections are located.
If you aren't going to use any heaters, it is important to plug the outlets from the shroud and the heater connection locations. Otherwise you are losing a lot of cooling air and hot air will also rise up thru the heater connection openings.
Perhaps you are just trying to get the engine going and will look after these items later.
Feel free to delete this post or ask me to do it if I appear to be hijacking the thread.
Dwight
_________________
The 'caretaker' of my wife's 66 bug; her dream car.