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Red Beard Samba Member
Joined: May 09, 2006 Posts: 463 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:17 am Post subject: Automatic transmission whines when put in reverse while cold. |
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Hoping to get some thoughts or ideas about this new issue:
I had my auto trans rebuilt and a peloquin TBD installed about 600 miles ago. Since I've had it back its functioning well (TBD is a major improvement traction-wise) but since day one I've noticed that about 80% of the time after I start the van cold and put it in reverse to back out of my driveway I get a high pitched whistling sound. It starts as soon as I move the selector to R, immediately stops if I put it back in park or switch to drive. It also will do it occasionally if I put it in neutral. This only lasts for maybe a minute. I've never had a whine or whistle in forward gear or after that first start.
The rebuild shop had asked me to return at the 1000 mile mark to recheck, I called them to ask about this just now and they sort of dismissed it as 'normal' or at least not significant, said just come in another 400 miles or call if something else develops or changes (this is a reputable shop.)
This seems a little odd to me as I never noticed any whine with my old trans.
Thoughts on what this could be, particularly, is this something anyone recognizes as a sign of impending doom or something that isn't done right? Spent a ton of $$ on getting this thing done and don't want to see an early death....
The only other thing that was done along with the rebuild was that my transmission cooler was moved to a more protected position, which required hoses about a foot longer than what I had.
Thanks for input |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission whines when put in reverse while cold. |
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Get in the van, drive it back to the place that did the work, and tell them to fix it.
Tell them to make a phone call when they have it repaired.
Done.
Why didn't you do this as soon as it started making the whistling noise?
Do it today, before the shop forgets who you are.
Don't wait another mile.
Nobody here did the trans work, why inquire about when it's going to die , what's wrong with it ?
The trans shop would have that answer.
The shop will be able to see it, drive it, hear what it does, nobody here has that luxury.
Does the trans have the correct amount of fluid in it? _________________ T.K. |
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Butcher Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2015 Posts: 1285 Location: Right Here
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission whines when put in reverse while cold. |
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I would park the car at the shop and in the morning I would have them road test with me so I can show them the issue. Noises are a tough thing to narrow down and difficult to diagnose at times. By you and the shop present you can show them your concern.
If it was not there before, it's probably not normal. The other issue you have is that I do not know any mechanic/shop that likes a comeback. |
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chachi Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2003 Posts: 858 Location: the weeds
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission whines when put in reverse while cold. |
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which transmission cooler? _________________ '74 transporter panel
'91 vanagon carat NAHT |
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eghall Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2012 Posts: 58 Location: Alameda, CA
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission whines when put in reverse while cold. |
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FWIW, i have a higher pitch whirr sound on cold start ups backing out of driveway only but not in any forward gear and not when warm. I don't know if its a whistle, and certainly sounds hydraulic and not like any interference for me.
I've had mine for 2.5 years with this noise (i thought it was normal until i just read TK's response) and addressed many issues on the van, but not tranny items other than changing fluid and filter. I haven't noticed any detrimental effect to the otherwise normal operation ~20k miles on a stock rebuild performed by shop under the PO supposedly, but i don't know the details off hand.
As i understand it the pressure of the reverse circuit in the valve body is astronomical compared to forward gears and i always figured it was due to this that there was noise and that was a benign personality trait of the machine.
OTOH, if i just dropped a bag of coin on a new one, i wouldn't hesitate to return to the shop... |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission whines when put in reverse while cold. |
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Yes, a 50 Buick Roadmaster with Dyna Flop had a trans whine.
Yep--a 54 Pontiac Catalina had a specific trans whine.
But--I have never heard of any VW trans having any kind of "I know what trans that is" kinda noise.
There isn't any if everything was up to snuff.
And I would have to guess if there was some sort of noise, it would almost for sure come from a starving pump screaming for mercy--running a little dry, not enough juice. _________________ T.K. |
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eghall Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2012 Posts: 58 Location: Alameda, CA
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission whines when put in reverse while cold. |
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i guess i should save my pennies and check my fluids
Red Beard perhaps these are questions for your shop after you demonstrate the noise, but i'll put them up here in hope someone has input:
(assuming TK is correct) what, other than low fluid level, would cause a pump to starve and create such noise?
why would this only happen at cold start up and not once warm?
why only in reverse and not forward gears?
if their answers point to a specific part of the trans it may help make a case that this is indeed not normal and needs to be addressed. |
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snwbrdr435 Samba Member
Joined: August 10, 2013 Posts: 337 Location: North Of Boston
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:12 am Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission whines when put in reverse while cold. |
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My friends VW mk3 jettas all whine in reverse, 5 speeds not autos. Straight cut vs helical cut gears play into this? |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:33 am Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission whines when put in reverse while cold. |
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I would sure like to hear what you guys consider a whistle, and as it allegedly only happens when the trans is cold it could be anything.
If there was an internal problem, it could be all kinds of items, leaking o-rings, some debris in the valve body, badly seated or worn out check valve balls, or as simple as a plugged up screen in the filter .
There is no concrete reason, this all just a guess from here as I for sure haven't heard a sound byte of the noise--and diagnosing problems / claimed noises via the internet is a total impossibility.
One guys definition of a noise could be nothing, or misinterpreted in the description.
I remember this happening at work--back when I was working on Mack's every day.
Customer calls me and sez his truck is going--BOOF-BOOF !
I said; " What in the hell is Boof-Boof ?"
"Get the truck over here so I can tell you what the noise is--"
He had a hole in the maxi brake air chamber pancake, and every time the driver hit the brake & on one wheel, it would leak a little air.
If he had told me this I could have told him--but it would have wound up back at the shop anyway--get it here, let me hear the noise so it can be fixed.
Anyhow, a lot can be lost in the description of the problems.
This is why I suggested getting it back to the guys that did the trans.
It could be nothing, it could be something--let them diagnose it.
Nothing is etched in stone in transmission noise issues. _________________ T.K.
Last edited by Terry Kay on Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Butcher Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2015 Posts: 1285 Location: Right Here
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Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 7:22 am Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission whines when put in reverse while cold. |
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snwbrdr435 wrote: |
My friends VW mk3 jettas all whine in reverse, 5 speeds not autos. Straight cut vs helical cut gears play into this? |
Automatics use planetary gears and none that I know are straight cut.
Manuals certainly transfer power differently than Automatics and that reverse noise in manuals would not apply in an automatic transmission. |
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PRND2L Samba Member
Joined: July 13, 2015 Posts: 5
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission whines when put in reverse while cold. |
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FWIW I had a 'whine' with my 90 automatic when cold in reverse only.
It made no noise before I moved to a GoWesty style of external cooler but whined in reverse after the conversion.
It sounded like the transmission pump not getting enough fluid. So I checked the cold and hot levels and they were within the marks.
Over a few days I slowly added 100ml of A/T fluid at a time until the whine went away.
When I re-checked the cold and hot levels they are right on the edge of being too full. But i've not had the return of any whine or noise.
I'll run the A/T for a few hundred km's and see if the whine returns.
BTW my A/T is original with 300,000 KM and has never been rebuilt. So my whine may not be the same as your whine.
-zander _________________ '90 Westfalia Automatic |
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nesurfer99 Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2013 Posts: 67 Location: Jacksonville, Florida
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Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission whines when put in reverse while cold. |
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Bump to see if either Red Beard or eghall figured out what thier problem was?
I have a similar issue - whines in park, reverse, neutral after it has been sitting overnight. 89 automatic trans with gowesty trans cooler. Fluid level is at the top of the mark hot and was replaced about 6k miles ago when I put in new 2nd gear brake band o rings.
I need to get this van home to Florida in a couple of weeks from Arizona and dont want to be facing a torque converter replacement in the parking lot of a truck stop. _________________ 89 Carat on the road and collecting (s)miles |
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Red Beard Samba Member
Joined: May 09, 2006 Posts: 463 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission whines when put in reverse while cold. |
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I haven't done anything about it, and I've driven it about 8k miles as it is. I noticed that it really only happens during cooler ambient temps, and never after the van has been driven a short distance. No other issues.
My suspicion is that it has something to do with resistance in the line going to the cooler when the fluid is more viscous. When the transmission shop reinstalled my aftermarket cooler, I had them position it farther forward than it had been previously. My hypothesis is that if I were to move it back to its previously location, with shorter lines to and from, that intermittent sound would go away.
Not super motivated to get under there and do that though, as it seems like a non-critical issue |
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nesurfer99 Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2013 Posts: 67 Location: Jacksonville, Florida
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Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission whines when put in reverse while cold. |
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Thanks for the quick reply. Good to know this is not necessarily a precursor to the torque converter failing. I will probably drop the pan and check the filter before I head home just for peace of mind. _________________ 89 Carat on the road and collecting (s)miles |
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termuehlen Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2012 Posts: 986 Location: Redwood City
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Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission whines when put in reverse while cold. |
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Read and listen to this:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=670187&highlight=
If it sounds like the whine in the linked video, this may get you closer to an answer. Another data point that seems to relate it to the external oil cooler. _________________ 1988 Westfalia automatic Subaru OBD1
1986 syncro tintop wbx |
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eghall Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2012 Posts: 58 Location: Alameda, CA
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:00 am Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission whines when put in reverse while cold. |
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nesurfer99-
I did go back and check fluids and i was at mid way between high and low when hot. Upon adding a bit more the whine disappeared from last July until now. my experience was that TK's suggestion that the pump was 'running a little dry' was corrected by this action.
I have driven 6-8k with no noticeable difference in transmission performance.
I just started getting the noise coming back last Tuesday on a trip to mountains above Tahoe where there were freezing temperatures. Its time to re-check fluids, i may be back at that point where i need to top off (from a very slow input shaft leak), otherwise its simply be temp related as Red Beard mentioned.
I rebuilt the cooling system about 6 months ago and switched over the stock transmission cooler to the FAS heat sink AT cooler, which bolts into the stock location with no external hoses or attachments to the body. this resulted in no impact or amplification to any transmission noise or vibrations, so i am pleased with that over some of the reports of GW or other coolers.
my 'whine' is at idle and not the same as the whistle in the linked thread. if it becomes predictable prior to me adding fluid i will attempt a video. |
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nesurfer99 Samba Member
Joined: December 15, 2013 Posts: 67 Location: Jacksonville, Florida
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Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:07 am Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission whines when put in reverse while cold. |
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Updating this for future readers.
I did what eghall and zander both suggested and added fluid over a couple of days until the whine went away. In my case, it took about half a quart. I'm sure if I check the level it will show above full, but I just completed a 2k plus trip over 4 days and have not noticed any ill effects. Whine is gone. _________________ 89 Carat on the road and collecting (s)miles |
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dougass Samba Member
Joined: December 13, 2016 Posts: 300 Location: NJ
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Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:58 am Post subject: Re: Automatic transmission whines when put in reverse while cold. |
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nesurfer99 wrote: |
Updating this for future readers.
I did what eghall and zander both suggested and added fluid over a couple of days until the whine went away. In my case, it took about half a quart. I'm sure if I check the level it will show above full, but I just completed a 2k plus trip over 4 days and have not noticed any ill effects. Whine is gone. |
Thanks for the update, I experience this on occasion as well.
What fluid do you run? I use type F which is very thick so the responses tend to make sense for me. _________________ '91 GL - 2.1 automatic named Klaus for weekend adventures.
#klausvan & @thisisklausvan |
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