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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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 Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: 72 super fuse question |
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| razorbeetle wrote: |
| sb001 wrote: |
IMO that might cause a slight misfire--maybe.
It would not cause the car to completely cut out. |
Thanks.
I would tend to agree, but was hoping this might be the problem so I could get right to it. |
Did you see my other post above?
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:40 am Post subject: Re: 72 super fuse question |
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| razorbeetle wrote: |
| When it first happened, I tried starting it and it would turn over, but would not start. I mashed the gas pedal all the way down and held it there and nothing. It sat for about 2 hours on the side of the road and it started. I began driving it home and after about 3 miles, bam. Just died again. The coil was really hot. I did notice that. Really hot. |
This sounds like a problem with the coil over heating. I would normally suggest you check your dwell, but from your pics you have a Pertrionix electronic points. Normally, these are considered non-adjustable. I did some looking and found this from Ratwell:
http://www.ratwell.com/technical/PertronixAdjust.html#dwell
It suggests setting the gap between the magnetic ring and the module to the largest gap possible w/o the outside rubbing the case.
If you have a dwell meter, check the dwell reading of your Pertronix. The above page suggests you should get a reading in the 50-60deg range. My CompuFire module would read 70deg! The good thing about electronic points is this additional dwell has no downside. It give the coil more time to build a charge.
| razorbeetle wrote: |
| I tried restarting it and noticed a lot of gas in the throat of the carb. I assumed it was flooded. |
This is a little worrisome. Do you have any idea WHY you had excess fuel in the carb throat? Was it from pumping the pedal? Maybe the inlet valve on the top of the carb is not sealing well?
| razorbeetle wrote: |
| I smelled fuel in the gas. I just put fresh oil in it today. |
This is again worrisome. How is the fuel getting into the crankcase? The two common ways:
1) The fuel pump diaphragm has a leak and fuel is draining down inside the fuel pump into the case.
2) The carb is draining liquid fuel into the intake. This fuel is draining into the cylinders and seeping thru the cylinder rings.
Overall, I'm thinking you have an ignition problem. You might try getting your hands on a set of points and condenser and replace your module as a test.
When it next gives you trouble, have a voltmeter with you and test the voltage at the ignition coil #15 (+) terminal with the ignition ON. Are you getting 12v here? If the voltage is less than 12v it could be dropping when you crank the engine and gets too low to power the coil. I've noticed below 10v the coil stops working properly. That is bad, but the electronic modules will start to have problems triggering the coil if the voltage drops below 12.0v. Is it possible your voltage is dropping after you've been driving for a while? Test battery and charging system. What are you voltage readings at the battery with everything OFF (normally 12.6v) as well as while you are running the engine at 2000rpm (normally >13.8v).
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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razorbeetle
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2014
Posts: 116
Location: usa
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: 72 super fuse question |
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I just realized I said I smell fuel in the gas. Of course I meant in the oil. 
I don't know what dwell means. I don't have a problem buying another distributor if that will fix the problem. I just want it on the road again.
Yes, I think the fuel came from me flooding the car trying to start it again. I think that's how the gas got into the oil.
I just got the fuel pump in the mail, I'll install it. Thanks to all of you for helping me.
I agree. I think it's an ignition problem. To be honest, I'd like a recommendation on a distributor. This is the second pertronix I've had and I don't want another one. The first one they sent me was defective and it took them 3 weeks turn around to get me this one to replace it.
Suggestions? Ashman, the coil was super hot. What would cause that?
Thanks
| ashman40 wrote: |
| razorbeetle wrote: |
| When it first happened, I tried starting it and it would turn over, but would not start. I mashed the gas pedal all the way down and held it there and nothing. It sat for about 2 hours on the side of the road and it started. I began driving it home and after about 3 miles, bam. Just died again. The coil was really hot. I did notice that. Really hot. |
This sounds like a problem with the coil over heating. I would normally suggest you check your dwell, but from your pics you have a Pertrionix electronic points. Normally, these are considered non-adjustable. I did some looking and found this from Ratwell:
http://www.ratwell.com/technical/PertronixAdjust.html#dwell
It suggests setting the gap between the magnetic ring and the module to the largest gap possible w/o the outside rubbing the case.
If you have a dwell meter, check the dwell reading of your Pertronix. The above page suggests you should get a reading in the 50-60deg range. My CompuFire module would read 70deg! The good thing about electronic points is this additional dwell has no downside. It give the coil more time to build a charge.
| razorbeetle wrote: |
| I tried restarting it and noticed a lot of gas in the throat of the carb. I assumed it was flooded. |
This is a little worrisome. Do you have any idea WHY you had excess fuel in the carb throat? Was it from pumping the pedal? Maybe the inlet valve on the top of the carb is not sealing well?
| razorbeetle wrote: |
| I smelled fuel in the gas. I just put fresh oil in it today. |
This is again worrisome. How is the fuel getting into the crankcase? The two common ways:
1) The fuel pump diaphragm has a leak and fuel is draining down inside the fuel pump into the case.
2) The carb is draining liquid fuel into the intake. This fuel is draining into the cylinders and seeping thru the cylinder rings.
Overall, I'm thinking you have an ignition problem. You might try getting your hands on a set of points and condenser and replace your module as a test.
When it next gives you trouble, have a voltmeter with you and test the voltage at the ignition coil #15 (+) terminal with the ignition ON. Are you getting 12v here? If the voltage is less than 12v it could be dropping when you crank the engine and gets too low to power the coil. I've noticed below 10v the coil stops working properly. That is bad, but the electronic modules will start to have problems triggering the coil if the voltage drops below 12.0v. Is it possible your voltage is dropping after you've been driving for a while? Test battery and charging system. What are you voltage readings at the battery with everything OFF (normally 12.6v) as well as while you are running the engine at 2000rpm (normally >13.8v). |
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razorbeetle
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2014
Posts: 116
Location: usa
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: 72 super fuse question |
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| sb001 wrote: |
| razorbeetle wrote: |
| sb001 wrote: |
IMO that might cause a slight misfire--maybe.
It would not cause the car to completely cut out. |
Thanks.
I would tend to agree, but was hoping this might be the problem so I could get right to it. |
Did you see my other post above? |
I did not see it. If you are talking about the tach, I'll look into that.
I actually thought of that already but all i did was test it sitting in my shop, not on the road. I'll disconnect the tach wire and try that as well when I go for my next ride.
My body guy was fixing my fender scratch and didn't like the way I ran the wire so he re-ran the wire. Its ran to the neg side, that much I know.
Thanks for the suggestion. |
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razorbeetle
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2014
Posts: 116
Location: usa
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: 72 super fuse question |
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OK guys,
Boy wonder here. As I said earlier, I got a new fuel pump (I was smelling gas in my oil) so I figured I might as well change it out.
Well, I was prying the plastic housing and guess what? The shaft broke off halfway down in the block. Surely someone can help me with instructions to retrieve the part that is stuck down in the hole. Trying long needle nose now. |
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: 72 super fuse question |
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| razorbeetle wrote: |
OK guys,
Boy wonder here. As I said earlier, I got a new fuel pump (I was smelling gas in my oil) so I figured I might as well change it out.
Well, I was prying the plastic housing and guess what? The shaft broke off halfway down in the block. Surely someone can help me with instructions to retrieve the part that is stuck down in the hole. Trying long needle nose now. |
Link
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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razorbeetle
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2014
Posts: 116
Location: usa
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:05 pm Post subject: Re: 72 super fuse question |
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| sb001 wrote: |
| razorbeetle wrote: |
OK guys,
Boy wonder here. As I said earlier, I got a new fuel pump (I was smelling gas in my oil) so I figured I might as well change it out.
Well, I was prying the plastic housing and guess what? The shaft broke off halfway down in the block. Surely someone can help me with instructions to retrieve the part that is stuck down in the hole. Trying long needle nose now. |
Link
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Yup.
Gotta wait till tomorrow. Gotta get a set at HD that's long enough. Mine are too short.
Stay tuned. |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: 72 super fuse question |
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| razorbeetle wrote: |
| I don't know what dwell means. I don't have a problem buying another distributor if that will fix the problem. |
DWELL is the measure of how long the points are closed in degrees of rotation. With stock points this should be in the 44-50deg range. With electronic points the value can be much higher.
Changes in Dwell affect ignition timing. So you always adjust dwell BEFORE you adjust timing.
| razorbeetle wrote: |
Yes, I think the fuel came from me flooding the car trying to start it again. I think that's how the gas got into the oil.
I just got the fuel pump in the mail, I'll install it. Thanks to all of you for helping me. |
Flooding it while trying to start the car is not usually enough for fuel to get into the crankcase. The fuel would need to sit in the cylinders to reach the crankcase. Flooding that prevents the engine from starting is usually limited to the intake. It takes excessive flooding like the inlet valve on the carb being stuck OPEN to flood the engine so badly that liquid fuel makes it to the cylinders.
| razorbeetle wrote: |
I agree. I think it's an ignition problem. To be honest, I'd like a recommendation on a distributor. This is the second pertronix I've had and I don't want another one. The first one they sent me was defective and it took them 3 weeks turn around to get me this one to replace it.
Suggestions? Ashman, the coil was super hot. What would cause that? |
An ignition problem doesn't only mean a distributor problem. A hot coil either means the coil has the wrong internal resistance (should be 3-4 ohms), or the points (points module in your case) is allowing too much current to flow thru the coil. I would normally suggest the dwell is incorrect, but with a Pertronix module you have limited adjustment.
I don't know if your Pertronix distributor will fit with stock Bosch points? If you can find a set that fits in your distributor, test with new points and condenser. This is a cheap test and a safe practice to keep the points and condenser in the glove box as a spare should the electronic module fail on some dark lonely road.
Check the voltage readings at the ignition coil and report back what you find.
Check the voltage readings at the ignition switch. Wiggle the switch and make sure there is voltage while in the ON position.
What make/model coil are you running? Check the primary resistance thru the ignition coil (resistance between the + and - posts with everything disconnected), it is in the 3-4ohm range?
Check the dwell of your distributor.
Lastly, check the fuel filter. While the symptom you described seems to indicate ignition... a clogged fuel filter could also allow you to drive for a short distance and then cut the fuel flow when you are running at speed so your engine dies and it take time for the fuel bowl to refill.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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razorbeetle
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2014
Posts: 116
Location: usa
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 7:48 am Post subject: Re: 72 super fuse question |
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Just a quick update. I did install a new fuel filter by the way.
I got the fuel pump broken shaft pulled out pretty easily and replaced the fuel pump. I put the carb and dist. back on and I had it running (Idle) for a few minutes.
I have a boatload of work to do today so I prolly won't get back to it today.
I'm back to trying to figure the firing order and set the timing. Something I'm not great at.
Thanks again
| ashman40 wrote: |
| razorbeetle wrote: |
| I don't know what dwell means. I don't have a problem buying another distributor if that will fix the problem. |
DWELL is the measure of how long the points are closed in degrees of rotation. With stock points this should be in the 44-50deg range. With electronic points the value can be much higher.
Changes in Dwell affect ignition timing. So you always adjust dwell BEFORE you adjust timing.
| razorbeetle wrote: |
Yes, I think the fuel came from me flooding the car trying to start it again. I think that's how the gas got into the oil.
I just got the fuel pump in the mail, I'll install it. Thanks to all of you for helping me. |
Flooding it while trying to start the car is not usually enough for fuel to get into the crankcase. The fuel would need to sit in the cylinders to reach the crankcase. Flooding that prevents the engine from starting is usually limited to the intake. It takes excessive flooding like the inlet valve on the carb being stuck OPEN to flood the engine so badly that liquid fuel makes it to the cylinders.
| razorbeetle wrote: |
I agree. I think it's an ignition problem. To be honest, I'd like a recommendation on a distributor. This is the second pertronix I've had and I don't want another one. The first one they sent me was defective and it took them 3 weeks turn around to get me this one to replace it.
Suggestions? Ashman, the coil was super hot. What would cause that? |
An ignition problem doesn't only mean a distributor problem. A hot coil either means the coil has the wrong internal resistance (should be 3-4 ohms), or the points (points module in your case) is allowing too much current to flow thru the coil. I would normally suggest the dwell is incorrect, but with a Pertronix module you have limited adjustment.
I don't know if your Pertronix distributor will fit with stock Bosch points? If you can find a set that fits in your distributor, test with new points and condenser. This is a cheap test and a safe practice to keep the points and condenser in the glove box as a spare should the electronic module fail on some dark lonely road.
Check the voltage readings at the ignition coil and report back what you find.
Check the voltage readings at the ignition switch. Wiggle the switch and make sure there is voltage while in the ON position.
What make/model coil are you running? Check the primary resistance thru the ignition coil (resistance between the + and - posts with everything disconnected), it is in the 3-4ohm range?
Check the dwell of your distributor.
Lastly, check the fuel filter. While the symptom you described seems to indicate ignition... a clogged fuel filter could also allow you to drive for a short distance and then cut the fuel flow when you are running at speed so your engine dies and it take time for the fuel bowl to refill. |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:35 am Post subject: Re: 72 super fuse question |
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| razorbeetle wrote: |
| I'm back to trying to figure the firing order and set the timing. Something I'm not great at. |
I posted this in another thread but it applies to you as well if you are trying to find the position of the #1 spark plug wire on the distributor cap....
| ashman40 wrote: |
... You have a different distributor that must be timed based on the distributor model and not the engine code or model year.
Also, you need to use valve/rocker arm movement to determine which position on your distributor is #1 spark plug wire and work from there.
Start with the model# off the distributor body. This will tell you the proper timing to use with that distributor and whether it is set with vacuum hoses connected or not. Look up your model# here for the correct timing specs:
http://www.oldvolkshome.com/ignition.htm
Next, you need to determine if you can use your crank pulley "as is", or do you need to add some new markings. What markings are already on your crank pulley? It wouldn't hurt to add markings for: TDC, 7.5BTDC, 28BTDC and 32BTDC. Go ahead and add a BDC mark at 180deg from TDC. This will be useful for valve adjustments.
Lastly, you need to determine (without a doubt) where your #1 spark plug wire goes on the distributor cap. This is done by looking at the rocker arms for #1 cylinder. When #1 is at the end of the compression stroke both the intake and exhaust valves will be CLOSED and no where close to moving (there should be a gap between the rocker arms and the valve stem). Rotate the crank pulley so the TDC mark lines up with the case split (any of the timing marks near TDC is close enough if your pulley doesn't have a TDC mark -- at TDC at the end of the compression stroke both the #1 intake and exhaust valves will be fully closed and nearly 180-deg from opening). While looking at the #1 rocker arms, rock the crank pulley back and forth. You should NOT see either of the #1 valves move. If they are moving you are at TDC for #3 cylinder, rotate the crank 360-deg and check again. Once the valves are not moving, you know the engine is at the end of the compression stroke and in position for #1 cylinder to fire the spark plug. Now, look at the distributor rotor and where it is pointing. It WILL be pointing to the #1 spark plug post on the cap. This is definitive as you have just confirmed the #1 cylinder is in position to receive a spark from the distributor... it is your join to wire the distributor so it sends the spark from the rotor tip to #1 cylinder. Run the wire from the post over the tip of the rotor to the #1 spark plug. Wire the remaining distributor posts in the standard firing order 1-4-3-2 clockwise around the cap. Even if this arrangement around the cap is not standard, it is correct for YOUR engine. |
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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razorbeetle
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2014
Posts: 116
Location: usa
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: 72 super fuse question |
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Update.
I want to personally thank everyone for their help and time. I really mean it.
I've decided I'll be better off finding a mechanic that knows what they're doing rather than going through the frustration. I live in Downeast Maine and there ain't very many VW mechanics around that I know of. I'm going to start looking tomorrow.
My ego has carried me too far on this one. Gotta let go.
Thank you all.
I will update when its fixed so you all know what the problem was. |
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: 72 super fuse question |
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may be the best course of action at this point.
hurry up and get it running so you can drive down for the first game this sat. 
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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razorbeetle
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2014
Posts: 116
Location: usa
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:48 am Post subject: Re: 72 super fuse question |
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| sb001 wrote: |
may be the best course of action at this point.
hurry up and get it running so you can drive down for the first game this sat. |
Jeez I forgot you're a hog fan. Can't wait to see how AA plays this year.  |
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: 72 super fuse question |
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| razorbeetle wrote: |
| sb001 wrote: |
may be the best course of action at this point.
hurry up and get it running so you can drive down for the first game this sat. |
Jeez I forgot you're a hog fan. Can't wait to see how AA plays this year. |
Reports I have heard say he has more raw talent than his brother. We'll see.
Did you ever try simply removing the tach wire and seeing how it ran without it?
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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razorbeetle
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2014
Posts: 116
Location: usa
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:05 am Post subject: Update |
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Here's what the mechanic found.
It boiled down to the needle in the carb wasn't closing when the float filled up.
I had just changed the oil and he said it was full of gas. He took the needle out of my old carb and it fixed the problem.
Question: is there supposed to be a rubber tip on that needle to help close off the intake of fuel? it's just brass. Seems like it should have an o ring or something in there to help close off the fuel. |
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razorbeetle
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2014
Posts: 116
Location: usa
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:09 am Post subject: Re: 72 super fuse question |
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| sb001 wrote: |
| razorbeetle wrote: |
| sb001 wrote: |
may be the best course of action at this point.
hurry up and get it running so you can drive down for the first game this sat. |
Jeez I forgot you're a hog fan. Can't wait to see how AA plays this year. |
Reports I have heard say he has more raw talent than his brother. We'll see.
Did you ever try simply removing the tach wire and seeing how it ran without it? |
Yes, I did disconnect the tach wire.
AA looks pretty good so far. This week will be a huge test for him. I'll be watching for sure. |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:44 am Post subject: Re: Update |
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| razorbeetle wrote: |
| Question: is there supposed to be a rubber tip on that needle to help close off the intake of fuel? it's just brass. Seems like it should have an o ring or something in there to help close off the fuel. |
Nope. The needle seat valve is a "tried and true" method for restricting and sealing the incoming fuel flow using the light pressure of a float. Because the float is the source of the pressure to close off incoming fuel flow the valve needs to move freely with just the minimal amount of pressure. And you don't want the seal to possibly stick since the opening of the valve is left to the weight of the pin falling loose on its own (other floats have a clip that pull the needle down when the float drops). A metal to metal seal is ideal for this application. Any sealing ring (o-ring) would require more force than the float could provide and could cause the needle to get stuck closes.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:05 am Post subject: Re: 72 super fuse question |
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| razorbeetle wrote: |
AA looks pretty good so far. This week will be a huge test for him. I'll be watching for sure. |
I'll actually be going to this one tomorrow. Hopefully they don't let it slip away like the last couple years.
If they can get past this test, #1 bama coming to town in 2 weeks. If both teams are undefeated that would be an epic contest. Fayetteville will be rocking
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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razorbeetle
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2014
Posts: 116
Location: usa
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: Update |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
| razorbeetle wrote: |
| Question: is there supposed to be a rubber tip on that needle to help close off the intake of fuel? it's just brass. Seems like it should have an o ring or something in there to help close off the fuel. |
Nope. The needle seat valve is a "tried and true" method for restricting and sealing the incoming fuel flow using the light pressure of a float. Because the float is the source of the pressure to close off incoming fuel flow the valve needs to move freely with just the minimal amount of pressure. And you don't want the seal to possibly stick since the opening of the valve is left to the weight of the pin falling loose on its own (other floats have a clip that pull the needle down when the float drops). A metal to metal seal is ideal for this application. Any sealing ring (o-ring) would require more force than the float could provide and could cause the needle to get stuck closes. |
makes sense. |
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razorbeetle
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2014
Posts: 116
Location: usa
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: 72 super fuse question |
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| sb001 wrote: |
| razorbeetle wrote: |
AA looks pretty good so far. This week will be a huge test for him. I'll be watching for sure. |
I'll actually be going to this one tomorrow. Hopefully they don't let it slip away like the last couple years.
If they can get past this test, #1 bama coming to town in 2 weeks. If both teams are undefeated that would be an epic contest. Fayetteville will be rocking |
I swore I would go this year and it snuck up on me. When I go, I'll give you a holler and we can meet up and enjoy the Hogs. Have fun.! |
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