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Remote start switch. What am I doing wrong?
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chrisarnt
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:20 am    Post subject: Remote start switch. What am I doing wrong? Reply with quote

To answer the common questions that might arise:

I know how to jump the terminals on a starter.

I've used a remote starter switch before.

The starter itself seems to work strong and properly.

I jumped the terminals (two large bolts) on this starter and it engaged as it should.

Yes, my battery is charged.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So I tried to make my own starter switch with a momentary switch and some clamps and such.

That did not work, it only engaged the solenoid.

So I bought one and it did the same thing. Only the solenoid engaged and spun.

So I cleaned the bolts with a wire brush and put a light coat of dialectical grease.
Same result.

I tried pulling the momentary switch and just crossing the wires... same result.

Here is how I have it connected.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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zoobyshoe
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:08 am    Post subject: Re: Remote start switch. What am I doing wrong? Reply with quote

chrisarnt wrote:
I jumped the terminals (two large bolts) on this starter and it engaged as it should.

Jumping the two large terminals will make the motor spin but won't start the engine. Jumping the two large terminals allows current to flow directly from the battery to the starter motor, but without involving the solenoid.

Since you said, "Only the solenoid engaged and spun." I have to think you are misnaming the parts. The solenoid doesn't spin and can't possibly spin, only the starter motor spins. The solenoid is the smaller of the two cylindrical things. That starter motor is the larger.

To start the engine you have to get current to the solenoid via the smaller spade connector terminal(s). The solenoid then will push the pinion out on the motor shaft to engage the flywheel, and also close a switch inside that connects those two large terminals you've been jumping.

So, you need to get current to the solenoid by connecting one lead from your remote switch to the big terminal that gets positive current directly from the battery, and by hooking the other lead to one of the spade connectors. Then, car in neutral, handbrake on, ignition in the "run" position, your remote switch should get the engine to crank (and start, if everything else is in order).
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chrisarnt
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:56 am    Post subject: Re: Remote start switch. What am I doing wrong? Reply with quote

zoobyshoe wrote:
chrisarnt wrote:
I jumped the terminals (two large bolts) on this starter and it engaged as it should.

Jumping the two large terminals will make the motor spin but won't start the engine. Jumping the two large terminals allows current to flow directly from the battery to the starter motor, but without involving the solenoid.

Since you said, "Only the solenoid engaged and spun." I have to think you are misnaming the parts. The solenoid doesn't spin and can't possibly spin, only the starter motor spins. The solenoid is the smaller of the two cylindrical things. That starter motor is the larger.

To start the engine you have to get current to the solenoid via the smaller spade connector terminal(s). The solenoid then will push the pinion out on the motor shaft to engage the flywheel, and also close a switch inside that connects those two large terminals you've been jumping.

So, you need to get current to the solenoid by connecting one lead from your remote switch to the big terminal that gets positive current directly from the battery, and by hooking the other lead to one of the spade connectors. Then, car in neutral, handbrake on, ignition in the "run" position, your remote switch should get the engine to crank (and start, if everything else is in order).


OK. So I guess what I am doing is spinning the starter, but the solenoid is not pushing the gear into place with the flywheel...

No matter.

OK. So in my words what I need to do is:
Ignition on.
Red connector to the spade, the other connector to the other large bolt ( or as it already is. )

Or if referring to the photo.
Just move the red clip up to the spade about an inch above it.
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zoobyshoe
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:16 am    Post subject: Re: Remote start switch. What am I doing wrong? Reply with quote

chrisarnt wrote:
Or if referring to the photo.
Just move the red clip up to the spade about an inch above it.

That sounds right but I can't really make out what anything is connected to in that pic.

Here's one I have in my gallery:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Just connect one lead of your remote switch to one of the circled terminals and the other lead to the other circled terminal. (It doesn't actually matter in this case to pay attention to black or red.)
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chrisarnt
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 12:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Remote start switch. What am I doing wrong? Reply with quote

OK.

We are on the same page.

Thank you.

Never had this problem before.
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HRVW
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Remote start switch. What am I doing wrong? Reply with quote

Rolling Eyes A remote switch is Old School......for me over 60 some years back.

I did one (push button) in my old 48 Buick directly above the Ignition/keys switch.

TWO wires....one to any HOT source and the other directly to the Solenoid to your right as your looking at it. (VW that is) I have one behind me next to the tunnel. One 10Ga to the + on the Battery and the other 14Ga to the solenoid. Less wire for the Voltage.

The Ignition is basically the same thing but with an extra spade for your Coil
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DeathTrap
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:33 am    Post subject: Re: Remote start switch. What am I doing wrong? Reply with quote

[quote="chrisarnt"]
chrisarnt wrote:

No matter.

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chrisarnt
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Remote start switch. What am I doing wrong? Reply with quote

OK. I tried that and it did not work.

What to do?
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zoobyshoe
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Remote start switch. What am I doing wrong? Reply with quote

chrisarnt wrote:
OK. I tried that and it did not work.

What to do?

What exactly happened when you tried it?
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Remote start switch. What am I doing wrong? Reply with quote

Maybe this pic will help? I found it in the gallery.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The above shows how to test your starter using a screwdriver (or other metal object) to connect two points (white arrows) on the starter solenoid. Your remote starter switch basically replaces the screwdriver with a long pair of wires and a switch.

If connecting the two points indicated with white arrows together does not cause your starter to crank the engine, then your starter+solenoid are bad.

Your earlier test of connecting the two larger studs together which caused the starter motor to spin but not engage the flywheel shows that the motor itself is working. That would narrow it down to the solenoid being bad.
They used to sell replacement solenoids for different cars, but I don't know if you can still go to your FLAPS and order them? Most people just replace the starter with a rebuilt one. A suggested upgrade would be to go with a starter from a Beetle with an Autostick. These do not require the bushing in the trans to be replaced and actually have more power (torque) than the manual trans starters. But they do tend to cost a bit more.
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
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'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
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chrisarnt
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:44 am    Post subject: Re: Remote start switch. What am I doing wrong? Reply with quote

OK.

I did these things with these results:

1. When I took a pair of needle-nose and jumped the two bolts the starter engaged and the engine turned.

2. When I hooked the remote start to the two bolts I heard a whirring sound but engine did not turn.

3. When I hooked the remote start to the larger bolt and then to the blade nothing happened. I also tried the other bolt to the blade and nothing happened.

I will also add here that the ground cable from the battery to the chassis gets hot when I'm trying to start with the key. MOtor does turn, and it turns well. Recently hot enough that I had to wait a minute before disconnecting it.

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ashman40
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Remote start switch. What am I doing wrong? Reply with quote

chrisarnt wrote:
1. When I took a pair of needle-nose and jumped the two bolts the starter engaged and the engine turned.

2. When I hooked the remote start to the two bolts I heard a whirring sound but engine did not turn.

These two are the SAME test. How can you get two different results? Something is NOT the same. The result you received for #2 is the expected result. Maybe your pliers were touching the small spade while you ran the test. This would explain your results.
Try deliberately using the pliers to connect the stud whith the battery cable to the small #50 spade. Do you get the same results as #1? You should.

chrisarnt wrote:
3. When I hooked the remote start to the larger bolt and then to the blade nothing happened. I also tried the other bolt to the blade and nothing happened.

By "larger bolt" do you mean the bolt where the battery cable is connected? This bolt with the battery cable is the INPUT connection. On my starter solenoid the bolts are the same diameter so larger bolt doesn't mean anything.

When you turn the ignition switch to START you are sending 12v down the #50 wire to the small #50 spade terminal on the starter solenoid. This energizes the solenoid. By connecting your remote starter switch to both the INPUT stud (12v+) and the small spade you are simulating turning the ignition switch to START each time you press the remote starter switch.
BTW, does you solenoid happen to have a spade terminal on the opposite side of the solenoid face from the #50 terminal? Some starters had an extra spade on this side that was not used. This spade is actually connected to the OUTPUT stud on the solenoid so it is powered WHILE the starter is running. It was meant to provide a boost of voltage to the ignition coil on some early model cars. Do not mistake this extra spade for the #50. Here is a pic:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



chrisarnt wrote:
I will also add here that the ground cable from the battery to the chassis gets hot when I'm trying to start with the key. MOtor does turn, and it turns well. Recently hot enough that I had to wait a minute before disconnecting it.

Check your connections. Wire brush them so you have the maximum surface area for current flow. Not only should you wire bush the battery post and the contact surface of the battery terminal on the end of the cable, but also clean up the contact point for the end of the ground cable that grounds to the chassis. It must be clean and allow maximum current flow. Also check the grounding cable at the nose of the transmission. This is how the trans and engine are grounded to the body (all the transmission mount points have rubber insulators so the transmission cannot ground thru them). Clean the connections on this ground cable as well.
Some starters draw as much as 200+ amps. You need a good battery cable and clean connections. If your cables are questionable, replace them. New cables are not too expensive. You don't even need to use the original VW parts. Just use good quality battery cables with good connections.


If you cannot get your remote starter to work at the starter motor but your ignition switch is starting the engine just fine, you can hijack the #50 circuit below the rear seat.
Find the #50 wire below the left rear seat. Remove the red wire at the junction in the pic below:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The wire that exits along the side of the center tunnel is headed to the #50 terminal on the starter solenoid. Connect your remote starter between the end of this wire and the battery (+) terminal.
Doing it this way avoids needing to crawl under the car. Cool
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road Sad }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
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chrisarnt
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Remote start switch. What am I doing wrong? Reply with quote

I figured out my problem.

Cheapo starter.

Randy in Maine sent me his and it worked immediately.

Needless to say I am buying a better one.

Thank you for the in depth response.
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