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EMPI Rear Disc Kit - 1972 Squareback
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sharmstr
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:55 pm    Post subject: EMPI Rear Disc Kit - 1972 Squareback Reply with quote

Couldnt find an answer...

This might be a dumb question, but is the emergency brake on the Empi disc brake conversion kits really just a parking brake? Meaning you need to have brake fluid in the calipers in order for the hand brake to work?
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Mike Fisher
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:19 pm    Post subject: Re: EMPI Rear Disc Kit - 1972 Squareback Reply with quote

My EMPI catalog shows rear disc brake kit 4/130 & 5/130 with emergency brake has long cables & flex hoses for IRS but no flex hoses for swing axle. Steel or heavy duty cast brackets in the "F" kits. Order your own catalog from www.empius.com
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sharmstr
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:10 am    Post subject: Re: EMPI Rear Disc Kit - 1972 Squareback Reply with quote

Thank you for the reply.

I have the kit with the emergency brake. I've installed the calipers and the e brake cables.

My question is, do you have to have fluid in the system in order for the emergency brake to work? Mine dont which leads me to believe that its not a true emergency brake.

I dont want to charge the system since the body is still off the pan.

Thank you.
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DougB
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:48 am    Post subject: Re: EMPI Rear Disc Kit - 1972 Squareback Reply with quote

Just wondering, are you using EMPI kit 22-2871 or 22-2871-F? They don't list the Type 3 as being a possible fitment for really any of their rear disc brake kits with e-brakes...is it just because of the e-brake cables (which I assume can be easily swapped with the stock cables)?

Thanks!
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sharmstr
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:08 am    Post subject: Re: EMPI Rear Disc Kit - 1972 Squareback Reply with quote

I got 22-2871-F. You cant use the stock cables because of how they attach at the caliper.

I have them installed and adjusted. When I pull up the handle the e-brake lever (on the caliper) moves as far as it can go but the rotors still spin.

My guess here is that I need the fluid in the system in order for them to work. This would make it a parking brake in my mind and not a real "emergency" brake like the OG drums had.
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DougB
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:14 am    Post subject: Re: EMPI Rear Disc Kit - 1972 Squareback Reply with quote

OH, that's what you meant...yes, I think you'll need fluid in the system as from what I know about e-brakes there are a few different kinds:

- ones where the cable pulls on a cammed lever that applies similar pressure to the system as pumping the brake

- ones where the rotor actually has a small drum on the back of it, and the e-brake actually uses a smaller set of drum brake shows (in addition to the disc's pads) - my 2000 Volvo wagon had something like this

Thanks for the confirmation on the kit...so it sounds like the cables in the kit are long enough for the Type 3...wonder why they don't market it as such :-/

Thanks,
- Doug
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sharmstr
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:47 am    Post subject: Re: EMPI Rear Disc Kit - 1972 Squareback Reply with quote

Thanks, Man. I just wanted to make sure I understood everything and that there wasnt a problem with the kit.

As far as e-brake cables are concerned. They are more than long enough, too long in fact. They dont mention this in their catalog, but the do in the instructions. They include two threaded ferrules (cable ends) that use set screws. You install the cables, figure out where to cut, install the cable ends and secure with a set screw.

I've had to make a few modifications for the e-cables to work. First, the outer sleeve isnt long enough. I had to extend the pipe that comes out of the pan. I did this with a 1/2" ID stainless pipe. I drilled 3 set screws. 2 where it attaches to the pan and 1 where the end of the sleeve slips in. Here's a picture.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Secondly, in the instructions it claims that you can rebend your original hard lines to fit the new location. This wouldnt have worked at all. Not a big deal for me since I am replacing all of the brake lines with SS braided lines anyways. However, the 10mm bubble to -3an fittings I bought bottomed out against the outside of the caliper. I removed some material from the caliper to fix this.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 2:33 pm    Post subject: Re: EMPI Rear Disc Kit - 1972 Squareback Reply with quote

By the way....the e-brakes on virtually all DOT approved calipers...work via cam inside...and many also work a ratchet assembly for the self adjusting feature of the disc brakes. Hydraulic fluid is not required for their operation.

But.....this is likely your problem

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The sheathing on the E-brake cable is a BOWDEN TUBE. It must be mounted solidly usually in a clamp...to create leverage to allow the cable to pull what is attached at the end. Unless the ferrule circled in the picture is mounted solidly in a clamp...and angled properly to create the proper angle of attack and to prevent wear of the cable against the ferrule as it exits...you will likely not get proper E-brake operation. Ray
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sharmstr
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:15 am    Post subject: Re: EMPI Rear Disc Kit - 1972 Squareback Reply with quote

Hey, Ray. Thank you for the reply.

I know its hard to see, but the bottom of that picture shows the stainless steel tube extension I made that the ferrule now sits in. The wall thickness of the tube is 1/8 so it very strong and doesnt flex at all. With that said, I have yet to try the hand brake with this setup. I originally had a weaker rubber tubing that did flex. I'll reattach the cables today and see if that was the issue and let you know.
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tom4
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:12 am    Post subject: Re: EMPI Rear Disc Kit - 1972 Squareback Reply with quote

most of the empi rear kits use a3/ mk3 golf/ jetta style vw rear calipers.

you do not need fluid to operate the ebrake, but you do need fluid to set the caliper / pads ... first pump does the trick.. then the ebrake does not have to travel as far to function.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:23 pm    Post subject: Re: EMPI Rear Disc Kit - 1972 Squareback Reply with quote

I can confirm that it is a mechanical-only parking brake that will work even without fluid. I have the same kit on my 1970. Have run into the same problem with the bowden tubes being too short to route correctly without rubbing.

When mine is correctly adjusted it holds very well at only the 2nd-3rd click on the brake handle.
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sharmstr
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:35 am    Post subject: Re: EMPI Rear Disc Kit - 1972 Squareback Reply with quote

Thank you
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:00 am    Post subject: Re: EMPI Rear Disc Kit - 1972 Squareback Reply with quote

tom4 wrote:
most of the empi rear kits use a3/ mk3 golf/ jetta style vw rear calipers.

you do not need fluid to operate the ebrake, but you do need fluid to set the caliper / pads ... first pump does the trick.. then the ebrake does not have to travel as far to function.


Thank you for this answer......also....I am wondering......are these A3/Golf 3 or Golf 4?

One of the issues I have looking at the caliper kits for the rear of type 3....which by all rights should also fit type 4/411-412.....except for the stub axle.......is that the few companies that make them....for ages have not really been clear on what the base caliper fit so you can shop for pads outside of their inventory.

Not far off I will be converting my 412 to rear discs. To me.....the CB Performance cast rear caliper bracket looks to be a bolt on after cleaning up a few bits and pieces. Ray
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sharmstr
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:24 pm    Post subject: Re: EMPI Rear Disc Kit - 1972 Squareback Reply with quote

Just following up on this. The tube extenders have fixed the issue. The breaks lock on 3 clicks. Here's a few more pics in case someone else runs into this issue.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:32 pm    Post subject: Re: EMPI Rear Disc Kit - 1972 Squareback Reply with quote

Geez, could that frame be more of a rusty disaster?? Wink Seriously, I had to wipe up the drool on my desk...looks like an awesome project.

I was wondering about your decision to go with flexible hoses all the way from the T-fitting in the rear. Wouldn't there usually be shorter hard lines in there somewhere, too?

BTW, those tubes are nice...any thought on knocking out an extra set or two for someone who might want to send some cash your way?

Just wondering...thanks!

- Doug Smile
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sharmstr
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:51 pm    Post subject: Re: EMPI Rear Disc Kit - 1972 Squareback Reply with quote

LOL. I was actually a bit embarrassed by all the dust.

The stock hard lines wont reach the calipers. Instead of bending up new hard lines and dealing with flaring the ends, I went with the full length lines. Less work, and fewer connections. I replaced every hose and even the hard line through the tunnel. New master cylinder, break switches and had Jim Adney redo my front calipers. Since everything is new now, I'm using DOT 5 fluid.

As far as the tubes are concerned, I'd be happy to make you some, but they are super simple. Just drill and tap some holes for the set screws into some 1/2" ID tubing. I bought a 12" piece from McMaster and cut it in half.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 19, 2022 9:21 am    Post subject: Re: EMPI Rear Disc Kit - 1972 Squareback Reply with quote

sharmstr wrote:
Couldnt find an answer...

This might be a dumb question, but is the emergency brake on the Empi disc brake conversion kits really just a parking brake?


It is a parking brake. The handbrake on stock VW is a parking brake as well. The conversion kit parking brake setup in the Empi is very similar to many domestic and european ratcheting piston/parking brake calipers on the market.

Can they all be used in an an emergency? Heck yeah.

The VW drum and the rear discs that use the primary brake pads and rotors work better in a true emergency than the parking brakes that are a separate small pad or the very small drum setup inside of the rotor - simply due to physics and less friction area/torque and less overall coefficient of friction/torque reduction if you will.


I had to use my parking brake in my 6800 lb Lincoln Navigator towing an impromptu bought 72 240z on my tow dolly when brake lines burst on the highway due to a sudden stop Shocked by an idiot that did not know where they were going... changed lanes to avoid, but 20 miles later - - pulled off to the side, no brakes just that little drum parking brake. Took about 100 foot plus to slowly stop Pray Pray
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