Converted to LED turn signals....now weak turn signal dash light

[Old n' slow]

Converted my 69 Beetle to LED turn signals front and back. Installed electronic control unit. Signals working fine but green turn signal dash light now only works when car is running and is very dim also.

My question....would replacing the dash light with a green LED solve my low light problem ? ( I understand I will need reverse polarity LED for turn signal indicator light)

P.S. The electronic control unit is MUCH QUIETER than the original unit so the light is what I will primarily rely on to remind me that my signals are on.
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Currently own : 1969 Beetle w/ 1600cc, Single Port, Solex 30 PICT 2, Dist. 113 905 205 T, stock exhaust.
All my daily drivers gone but not forgotten;

1964(sunroof)1967 & (2)1968 Beetles , 1968 Squareback , 1963 (23 window )Deluxe Sunroof Bus , 1969 Westphalia camper, 1974 Dasher , 1985 Vanagon , (2) 1981 Rabbit Diesels & a 1991 Jetta Diesel .

[ashman40]

What are the terminal numbers on your flasher relay? The stock Euro-style flasher relay will have : #31, #49 (+) and #49a. If your flasher relay has different terminal numbers it may not be compatible with the Beetle wiring. Do your turn signals work normally when the turn signal indicator bub is disconnected?

The flasher relay and turn signals in the corners work how you would expect them to. The flasher relay is powered while the ignition is ON. But it has no path to ground. When you move the turn signal lever to L or R you close the circuit and there is a path to ground thru bulbs on one side. The current flows thru the flasher relay which pulses the output to cause the bulbs to "blink".
The problem is how the Beetle powers the turn signal indicator lamp in the speedo. The three indicator lamps at the bottom of the speedo share a common 12v+ from the ignition switch. Each bulb has 12v+ and is looking for a path to ground. The Gen lamp is grounded by the VR. The Oil lamp is grounded by the oil pressure switch at the engine.
The turn signal indicator is grounded by the corner lamps in a very unique way. Think of the output from the turn indicator lamp on the blue/red wire as a small garden hose (the 2W indicator bulb restricts the amount of current that can flow thru the bulb). Think of the #49a output of the flasher relay and the corner bulbs as a fire hose (the 2x 21W corner bulbs flow much more current than the 2W indicator bulb). When the flasher relay is pulsing ON the current flow from the #49a terminal to the corner lamps is so great that the turn indicator lamp cannot flow much current at all. The fire hose and garden hose are sharing the same spout. While the fire hose and garden hose are both ON the fire hose prevents the garden hose from flowing much water. Both are trying to flow current to the ground by flowing thru the corner bulbs.
When the flasher relay is NOT ON (flasher relay pulsing OFF), there is no current flowing out of #49a so the turn indicator lamp now has a free path to ground thru the corner lamps and the indicator lamp turns ON. When the flasher relay starts to flow current once more (fire hose ON) the turn indicator lamp goes dim.
The problem is that flasher relays not designed for Beetles will "see" the positive current flowing out from the indicator lamp as INPUT voltage on the #49a OUTPUT terminal of the flasher relay. For some relays this can cause a problem as they were not designed to operate with positive voltage on the OUTPUT terminal. You really need a flasher relay designed to work with Euro-style turn/E-Flasher systems.
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}

[Old n' slow]

You were right, I have the more common electronic flasher made for American car wiring. When I disconnect the dash indicator light the blinkers work much better........I will now order the correct 31/49/49a flasher.

Once again.....Thank you for all your help now and in the past : )
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Currently own : 1969 Beetle w/ 1600cc, Single Port, Solex 30 PICT 2, Dist. 113 905 205 T, stock exhaust.
All my daily drivers gone but not forgotten;

1964(sunroof)1967 & (2)1968 Beetles , 1968 Squareback , 1963 (23 window )Deluxe Sunroof Bus , 1969 Westphalia camper, 1974 Dasher , 1985 Vanagon , (2) 1981 Rabbit Diesels & a 1991 Jetta Diesel .

[ashman40]

[Old n' slow]

Went from a weak dash indicator light (with an electronic flasher with B+ L -E terminals) , but LED signals did work perfectly, to almost non working ( barely flash and won't work at all with running lights on and no dash light at all) when I changed to an LED compatible flasher with 31 L49a 49 terminals.

I'm ready to just live with the working perfectly B+ L -E flasher and the low dash light but just wondering why the correct (???) 31 L49a 49 LED compatible flasher is a complete flop in my 69 Bug ( w/ LED's front & back)

I realize diagnosing electrical problems online is difficult, but curious if anyone had any thoughts on why the "correct" 31 L49a 49 didn't work at all ?
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Currently own : 1969 Beetle w/ 1600cc, Single Port, Solex 30 PICT 2, Dist. 113 905 205 T, stock exhaust.
All my daily drivers gone but not forgotten;

1964(sunroof)1967 & (2)1968 Beetles , 1968 Squareback , 1963 (23 window )Deluxe Sunroof Bus , 1969 Westphalia camper, 1974 Dasher , 1985 Vanagon , (2) 1981 Rabbit Diesels & a 1991 Jetta Diesel .

[joey1320]

I do not know the cause of your problems but one thing I would recommend is performing a voltage drop test across the corresponding wires, maybe you have some issues there.
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**1971 Super Project
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0

[glutamodo]

The one you had before was actually correct, as that is a grounded relay. B(attery) is the same as +49, L(oad) is the same as 49a, E(arth) is the same as 31.
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Andy T.


IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
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[Old n' slow]

[ashman40]

[Old n' slow]

I'm using an RFL3...... When I get time I'll try what you said. Thanks.

There is a company that sells the green turn signal light in reverse polarity LED for $6.00 plus $3 & change shipping...... I might go that route if it would shine more brightly ?????

Just checked....it's a CEC ( RFL3 led comparable, made in Taiwan) EF35L ........EF is a direct replacement for EP and terminals are from left to right -31 L49a +49
_________________
Currently own : 1969 Beetle w/ 1600cc, Single Port, Solex 30 PICT 2, Dist. 113 905 205 T, stock exhaust.
All my daily drivers gone but not forgotten;

1964(sunroof)1967 & (2)1968 Beetles , 1968 Squareback , 1963 (23 window )Deluxe Sunroof Bus , 1969 Westphalia camper, 1974 Dasher , 1985 Vanagon , (2) 1981 Rabbit Diesels & a 1991 Jetta Diesel .

[Old n' slow]

JUST A FOLLOW UP THAT MIGHT HELP SOMEONE . Not criticism of the help I received ......since it's very difficult to diagnose someone else's electrical problems without being there........ Again thank you all for the help.

Finally fixed my signals by going to a CF 13 relay even though every search on the internet said ( EP 35 L ) RFL 3 relay was the way to go with LED's in my very stock original 1969 Bug......The weak dash indicator was "fixed" by switching out the stock 12 volt ba7s bulb with a 6 volt amber ( couldn't find green ) led ( I solved the reverse polarity problem by isolating and rewiring the led bulb).

Everything works great now : ) I hope this helps someone someday.
_________________
Currently own : 1969 Beetle w/ 1600cc, Single Port, Solex 30 PICT 2, Dist. 113 905 205 T, stock exhaust.
All my daily drivers gone but not forgotten;

1964(sunroof)1967 & (2)1968 Beetles , 1968 Squareback , 1963 (23 window )Deluxe Sunroof Bus , 1969 Westphalia camper, 1974 Dasher , 1985 Vanagon , (2) 1981 Rabbit Diesels & a 1991 Jetta Diesel .

[ashman40]

Interesting...

I thought I would add something for the next person who comes across this thread.

I found a page about someone trying to get LED's working on their restoration (not VW, but conceptually the same issues).
https://914electric.wordpress.com/2011/08/01/bells-and-whistles-part-2/
He posted a nice pic of four LED compatible flasher relays and their terminal numbers:

The reason I include this pic is because it shows the CF-13 relay on the right with the proper 31/49a/49 terminal numbers in the correct positions.
(Interestingly, he couldn't get any of them to work with his LED turn signals. And he tried BOTH the EP-35 and CF-13. Since he was having issues w/ his parking lights flash while the turn signals flashed I suspect he had a grounding issue.)

I also found this diagram from a different vendor which shows three different ways to wire the CF-13 flasher relay.

http://www.vleds.com/3-pin-european-electronic-led-flasher-blinker-fix.html
The thing to note is the "pilot" (indicator) lights. In these examples all are negative grounded and are powered by the flasher relay.
For the VW Beetle, the single turn indicator lamp has a constant 12v+ and the connection to the #49a provides a pulsing path to ground.
It is interesting that the SAME flasher relay can be wired differently for different systems. Not that for the 3-prong European installation the 12v+ comes into the #49 terminal. For the 3-prong American installation 12v+ comes into the #31 terminal! And for the three different installs the output (LOAD) is on three different terminals!
This looks like the most "flexible" flasher relay out there.

I've not used the CF-13 flasher relay, but I'm keeping it on my list of "possible" LED compatible flasher relay replacements.
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AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}

[Old n' slow]

[HunterTheBusHunter]

I had the same issue you were having. I replaced the dash indicator bulb with a led and it solved the whole thing. Im using a EP35 flasher and leds all around. You might have the wrong wire placement on the CF13 because it can be wired so many ways.
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"This is air. Air is for breathing and for cooling car engines. Air won't freeze up, air won't boil over. Ask any Volkswagen." (o\_!_/o)

[ashman40]

[hitest]

I have been following this thread without a particular need- but wanted to comment on Old n' Slow. You sir have provided an example of the BEST thread wherein you asked for help; followed up; listened; replied; tried; failed; admitted- you name it! I wish everyone on the Samba could use your thread as an example of how to use these forums for troubleshooting in the BEST possible way.

Thank you sir and Sincerely, Bradford
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[mcrotty5]

Just wanted to see if there was any resolution to this, as im currently having the same issue. Signals flash at all 4 corners, but i dont get anything on the indicator on the speedo.

[ashman40]

First thing... test your turn indicator lamp in the speedometer.
With your ignition switch ON and the engine NOT running the OIL and GEN lamps should be ON, but the turn indicator will be OFF. With a short jumper wire, ground the terminal on the center turn indicator bulb holder. This is where the blue/red wire connects to the bulb holder. Doing this should turn the turn indicator lamp so now all three indicator lamps will be ON.

Next, turn the ignition switch OFF and turn the E-Flasher switch ON. The turn indicator lamp should flash along with the corner lamps. In this configuration (ignition switch OFF) the turn indicator lamp in the speedometer becomes a 5th corner lamp.

If your indicator lamps do not work as described above, find the wire connected to the very bottom terminal of the speedometer (below the three indicator lamps). This should be a black or green wire coming from the fuse box. Turn the ignition switch ON and test the end of this wire for 12v+. It should NOT be grounded. If you do not have 12v on the wire, trace it back and see where it goes. Some years it was directly connected to the fuse box. Other years power from the fuse box went to the fuel gauge vibrator before daisy-chaining to the bottom terminal. All three indicator lamps in the speedometer work from a ignition switched constant 12v+ source and each indicator lamp wire runs to a switched ground to turn the lamp ON (oil pressure switch and voltage regulator ground their end of the blue wires to turn the indicator lamps ON.


Test your corner lamps.
Remove the turn indicator lamp holder from the speedometer and remove the bulb. Reinstall the empty bulb holder into the speedometer. Test both the turn signals (L & R) and the E-Flasher (4-ways). All corner lamps should flash with the same brightness and speed.
Reinstall the speedometer turn indicator lamp and rerun the same test.
With the ignition switch ON and turn signal switch ON, the speedometer indicator lamp should flash OPPOSITE (out of sync with) the corner lamps. With the ignition switch ON and E-Flasher switch ON the indicator lamp should flash OPPOSITE the corner lamps. With the ignition switch OFF and E-Flasher switch ON the indicator lamp should flash "in sync" the corner lamps.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}

[mcrotty5]

that was a great explanation. So i thought i would try to clarify, i jumped in on this conversation way after the fact.

I have led tail lights for years. I currently have the EP35 relay in my car. my indicator light in my speedo is LED as well. until yesterday, i had regular bulbs in my turn signals up front. Everything worked exactly as it should, no issues.

however, yesterday afternoon i switched the front bulbs over to LED. once i did that, the signals work on all 4 corners as they should, however the indicator in the speedo will only light once. if i look hard at the indicator, i can see if flicker every 2 or 3 clicks.

[plagos_g]

I've been using LED's in my crew cab for about 5 years now, and 2 in the bug.
I had the same problem of the indicator messing up everything else. My solution was... different.

I added two wires coming from the hazard switch (L, R) using two piggyback terminals, joined them using two diodes and replaced the bulb with a custom wired led with a resistor.
EDIT: I use a cheap led flasher from ebay since the day I installed the bulbs, (E, L, B), so I suppose it works with any LED compatible unit.

Picture one shows a basic schematic.

Picture two shows the LED in the drilled bulb holder, with heatshrink tubing for insulation.

The original input wire from 49a is forever covered in insulating tape, if I ever go back to incandescent bulbs, it will be available.
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1998 Volkswagen Sedan (MexiBeetle, daily drive)
1987 Volkswagen Kombi (crew cab, br)