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Pruneman99
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2012
Posts: 5013
Location: Oceanside
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 Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1965 40hp with 30 miles on it runs like crap! |
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It was years ago I must have used the faulty brass top knockoff pumps. I didn't know pierburg and others made a brass top pump.  learn something new every day. I have seen the pumps with the outlets on the top, and thought these to be better, but I've never used them. Next time I'm at Pomona, maybe I'll pick up a brass topped fuel pump and actualy look at it. Thx for the info. Hijack over |
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andk5591
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 16758
Location: State College, PA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1965 40hp with 30 miles on it runs like crap! |
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Have not seen anything about you measuring fuel pressure. It has been alluded to by other posters, but you NEED to measure it. Will identify if your pump is the problem or not.
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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hazetguy
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Joined: April 06, 2001
Posts: 10773
Location: iT StiNgeD iTseLf tO dEAd
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:08 am Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1965 40hp with 30 miles on it runs like crap! |
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ok, i am looking at this pic and looking at the metal fuel inlet line and hose. you need to make that a FLAT, direct line into the pump. Having it go up and loop back down is not helping the fuel delivery one bit. Also, the metal fuel line needs to be over the top of the manifold, not under it where it rests on the heat riser, heating the fuel. It looks like the line is installed "backwards", meaning the ends should be reversed, like the part that can be seen sticking up is the end that passes through the front engine sheet metal (based on the bends/angles of the metal line). See pic below for an example of how the metal line should be routed.
also, uncoil the condenser wire. why people think coiling it up like that is a good idea is beyond me.
a resonable example of correct fuel line routing:
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Sharp64
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 5304
Location: Central Florida
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1965 40hp with 30 miles on it runs like crap! |
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Once you get things worked out, also look into getting the proper vacuum line that has a loop or elbow in it that keep fuel from being sucked back into the vacuum canister.
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1967 Ghia
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williamM
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Joined: August 07, 2008
Posts: 4333
Location: southwest Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:05 am Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1965 40hp with 30 miles on it runs like crap! |
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In hazmats pic (sorry hazetguy) you can see the correct nylon 3 position button for holding the spark plug wires, and the fuel line- So that would be a good starting point. Then a temp fuel pressure gauge will give you an idea of kind of pressure the float and needle are putting up with.- I know - its all been said before-
Then there is the problem of vacuum leaks- again-
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sjbartnik
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5998
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1965 40hp with 30 miles on it runs like crap! |
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| fl59bug wrote: |
I just did my first oil changes (at 25 miles) and at that time I rechecked the valves (.006) and changed the oil in the filter. I wonder if running one of those low profile paper/mesh filters will help? |
The engine when set up correctly runs great with the stock oil bath.
Putting on one of those paper filters is just trying to fix the symptom without actually addressing the problem. You want to fix the problem, not the symptom.
Those paper filters look crap and are crap.
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1965 40hp with 30 miles on it runs like crap! |
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| andk5591 wrote: |
| Have not seen anything about you measuring fuel pressure. It has been alluded to by other posters, but you NEED to measure it. Will identify if your pump is the problem or not. |
I plan to go buy the cheapie fuel pressure gauge and tee, and do this asap. I also see in my service manual a sort of indirect means of determining if the fuel pressure is in range.
Basically I need to measure the stroke of the fuel pump pushrod and if it is too long I can stack gaskets to bring it in range. That is no substitute for the actual pressure check which I will do in the next bit. I'll post up my results here. |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:02 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1965 40hp with 30 miles on it runs like crap! |
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Thanks hazetguy I'll correct the orientation and placement of the metal fuel line as per the recommendations you gave and the picture. Good eye  Lucky for me that intake manifold is a cold-natured beast as I sure don't want to heat the fuel any. When I get off work today I'll go fix all that.
I have always thought the reason for coiling up the condenser wire was to effectively shorten it and not have it get wrapped up or tangled. I know that coiling wires can introduce inductance though so I'll straighten it out. |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1965 40hp with 30 miles on it runs like crap! |
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| Sharp64 wrote: |
| Once you get things worked out, also look into getting the proper vacuum line that has a loop or elbow in it that keep fuel from being sucked back into the vacuum canister. |
Thank you, I will do that. I never thought of that possibility. |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1965 40hp with 30 miles on it runs like crap! |
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| sjbartnik wrote: |
| fl59bug wrote: |
I just did my first oil changes (at 25 miles) and at that time I rechecked the valves (.006) and changed the oil in the filter. I wonder if running one of those low profile paper/mesh filters will help? |
The engine when set up correctly runs great with the stock oil bath.
Putting on one of those paper filters is just trying to fix the symptom without actually addressing the problem. You want to fix the problem, not the symptom.
Those paper filters look crap and are crap. |
Gotcha Good point. I'll stay with the oil bath filter.
I'm strongly in favor of keeping everything as close to stock as possible, no 83mm P/C or dual carb stuff as I am an avid KISS vw guy. No offense whatsoever to anyone who has those mods, as there are a lot smarter folks on this site than me that can make those setups run well.
I have another powerful sports car and a diesel truck for hot rodding lol.
My dream for this little VW is to have it run right, nothing more, nothing less |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1965 40hp with 30 miles on it runs like crap! |
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| williamM wrote: |
In hazmats pic (sorry hazetguy) you can see the correct nylon 3 position button for holding the spark plug wires, and the fuel line- So that would be a good starting point. Then a temp fuel pressure gauge will give you an idea of kind of pressure the float and needle are putting up with.- I know - its all been said before-
Then there is the problem of vacuum leaks- again-
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I see that WW sells those wire holders, and I'll grab a set, thanks |
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andk5591
Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005
Posts: 16758
Location: State College, PA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:39 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1965 40hp with 30 miles on it runs like crap! |
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You can get a cheap 0-15 psi fuel gauge from almost any parts store for about $15. Get a brass T and 2 barbed NPT fittings and a couple pieces of fuel line and you are in business. I think mine is a Mr Gasket or something like that.
_________________
D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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glutamodo 
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26325
Location: Douglas, WY
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1965 40hp with 30 miles on it runs like crap! |
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| fl59bug wrote: |
| One thing I did not do when assembling the motor was cc the heads, as there are not readily available cc kits for a 40 hp engine. Everything out there only covers 85.5mm and up. |
One comment about CC-ing the heads, and the kits available not being for the 1200: all you need is a plastic disc the size of the cylinder opening.
I've never bought any of those kits but I've just used one of those clear plastic spacers you get on the end of tubes of blank DVDs or CDs and use scissors to cut it down to the cylinder opening size. A little bit of petroleum jelly and a graduated syringe, and you're ready to go.
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IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
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hazetguy
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Joined: April 06, 2001
Posts: 10773
Location: iT StiNgeD iTseLf tO dEAd
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| Posted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 7:17 am Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1965 40hp with 30 miles on it runs like crap! |
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Any update?
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thebucket: I invested in hoodride, now DBD won't return my call?
hazetguy: invested?
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1965 40hp with 30 miles on it runs like crap! |
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Waiting for payday to purchase a fuel pressure test gage. In the meantime I took out the cheapy non-rebuildable fuel pump and measured the fuel pump pushrod stroke.
Came to about 1/32" too much so I added another gasket under the fuel pump. I haven't fired the car up yet to see what difference that made since I want to take a fuel pressure reading first.
I'm gonna get the gage this coming Friday and take a reading this coming weekend. If its more than 2.5 psi I'm going to rebuild the stock fuel pump and replace the cheapie with it. I'll post up my results here.
If the fuel pressure is off base then I'm going to get that < 2.5 psi and see what that gets me. Once that's in range its on to rebuilding the 28-pict-1 and replacing the empi 30-pict-1 with that. |
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Chad M
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Joined: July 14, 2003
Posts: 723
Location: Alberta
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| Posted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1965 40hp with 30 miles on it runs like crap! |
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| For what it's worth, I cut a 4mm section from an old fuel pump base and made a shim and with using thin paper shims between each layer, resulted in a 2.5psi output. |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1965 40hp with 30 miles on it runs like crap! |
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I bought the fuel pressure gage, and forgot to grab new plug wires while there. I'll be running back up the road to my local parts house this afternoon and I'll have the results of my fuel pressure check up by tomorrow afternoon if all goes well.
Didn't want ya'll to think I'd forgotten to follow up |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1965 40hp with 30 miles on it runs like crap! |
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Ok, well, I measured the fuel pressure, and its NOT GOOD . Here is the gage:
When I first started up the engine with the gage "tee'd" in, the pressure was fluctuating between 5 and 7psi, then as the engine settled in it was fluctuating (still at idle) between 2.5 psi and 8psi. If I revved it up to 2500 - 3000 rpms (approximately) the fluctuations would narrow to between 4-5 psi.
As all this was happening I watched the float bowl start dripping. I had never noticed that happening before, but then again I have never had a fuel pressure gage hooked in.
So, my cheapy fuel pump has been, and continues to absolutely murder the fuel pressure and the Empi 30-pict 1. If the fuel pressure was as high as it looked I can't even necessarily blame the 30-pict-1 even though it is not correct for my engine.
What is up with the fluctuating? Is that expected? I was thinking there would be a single reading at idle and then another at 3000 rpm, but it swung around all over the map.
I've got my stock fuel pump in pieces, and am ordering the rebuild kit from WW or CIP1 and getting that in place asap. Of course I will plan on another fuel pressure test once the rebuilt pump is installed so I can be as thoroughly sure as possible that my fuel pressure is correct. |
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hazetguy
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2001
Posts: 10773
Location: iT StiNgeD iTseLf tO dEAd
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1965 40hp with 30 miles on it runs like crap! |
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| fl59bug wrote: |
| As all this was happening I watched the float bowl start dripping. |
dripping from where? (i am thinking bad needle/seat, which is why i ask)
also, how about some current / updated engine pics.
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thebucket: I invested in hoodride, now DBD won't return my call?
hazetguy: invested?
thebucket: Yeah Haze, its where people put money into a company in hopes of a return on their money |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:31 pm Post subject: Re: Rebuilt 1965 40hp with 30 miles on it runs like crap! |
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It appears to be the fuel line at the float bowl inlet. The line is getting wet, and the excess fuel due to gravity runs down and under the float bowl and starts dripping on the engine.
I repeated my fuel pressure test and I shortened up the length of fuel line that connected from the tee fitting to the gage, in case that was somehow messing up my test.
I saw basically the same behavior ie around twice the allowable fuel pressure (4-5 psi instead of 2.5 psi) and the fuel line at the carb inlet getting wet again with eventual dripping.
The thing is, before I rebuilt the engine I was running the same non-OE fuel pump and even then I noticed what a lack of power the engine had. At that time I attributed the low power to the 90ish psi of cylinder compression and decided to rebuild. I believe knowing what I know now the fuel pump was even then drowning the carb which couldn't keep up with the amount of fuel being sent to it, resulting in the nasty bog off the line and having to down-shift on even small hills.
I wish I'd consulted you guys way before now and done the fuel pressure test way back when. |
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