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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34002
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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 Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:38 am Post subject: Re: Interesing experience with Wiseco Customer Service ! |
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| yamaducci wrote: |
| It's how manufacturers have been making "Chrome plating" on plastic headlights for decades. |
Or made "chromed" plastic bumpers on models cars in the '60s. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: Interesing experience with Wiseco Customer Service ! |
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| modok wrote: |
| "Physical vapor deposition" |
Actually....they use APCVD for the most part depending on what is alloyed with the chrome.
We use vapor dep in many of the industries I work within. PVD....0hysical va0or deposition is fairly generic.
APCVD....atmospheric pressure chemical vapor dep.....is used when they can....because it,doea not require cryogenic vaccum or purge gases. Much cheaper.
Also....a lot of specific platings like this...especually when very specifc microscopic surface texture and profile are either allowedallowed or required.....is done by "sputtering".....and some plated rings and cylinders are this way (Ford has some sputtered cylinders).
Sputtering is usually done in inert gas atmosphere with "targets" made of one or more pure metals.....that are zapped by extreme voltage arcs to create a plasma spray of very pure content and uniform grain.....that sprays the part and creates the plating.
Ray |
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Interesing experience with Wiseco Customer Service ! |
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| modok wrote: |
It's clear we all have different views, and I think we had this discussion last year and the year before too, and not much has changed.
I'd like to say something useful, so I will.
Chrome and nitrided steel do not necessarily need different finishes, the width of the ring is actually a bigger factor. If they are less than 1/16, then you should do 400 finish, if they are wider than 1/16, then go no finer than around 300 IMO
wider rings of course, will take longer to wear-in than skinny ones, no brainer there.
A plateau finish, I believe, is only a finish that physically resembles that shape. A finish where you do a two step and hone only a few strokes, so you are only honing the hone marks, should be called something else, if it does not actually resemble a plateau.
Isn't it interesting the sunnen plateau brush is 320 and some stones I use for finish are 320 grit, same grit, do they create the same finish? NO. Night and day difference, because the amount of pressure is different, the binder is different.
I finish with soft stones, and very light pressure, so I am probably doing something IN BETWEEN the varied recommendations you hear from different places, but in order to be able to just lightly sweep through the cylinder with these soft stones FIRST it needs to be straight, otherwise it won't even work, it'll mess up the stones and come out all weird.
Careful with plateau honing, don't overdo it. Can lead to problems if over done, and of course the brush research guys don't know jack about rings, or they would be called the ring research company, and they don't know much about honing either, as the info pamphlet they distributed a long time ago clearly illustrates. I've seen a lot of "RACE" engines come in with overly fine hone jobs and they have some scuffing occasionally from going too fine, finer isn't necessarily better, if overdone, It's like paint. You "cut and buff". Not just buff, FIRST you use a coarse block to make it flat, then you go finer and finer and progressively take out the scratches and finally end up with a dead flat and smooth surface, and at some point further buffing will actually make it WORSE, so it is a process with steps that have to be gone though. The block sanding makes it flat, and the other operations just keep it that way while making the surface smoother. A lot of cars at the show the gloss is kinda wavy, because they worked too hard tried to hard. you have to be brave and do each step no more or no less, instead they chicken out and stop short and then try to make up for it later and it's all wavy. Try to start out with super fine grit, or swich too soon.....you don't get anywhere, you just smear it around. Same with metal, in fact worse. What happens when you WORK metal? it gets work hardened, it gets fatigued, brittle, glazed, burnished or whatever you want to call it. When you bend it back and forth it gets hard and brittle. You need a clean cut with undisturbed bright metal right on the surface so that the ring can slide over it and bend down the peaks as needed, if the peaks are already bent and jammed it cannot do that. A good hone job, clean the cylinders ONCE and they are clean. The mahle cylinders you can clean and clean over and over and they still have black stuff on the rag. I don't know if you can fix that in ONE STEP. May need to CUT AND BUFF the right way, to get the level of quality you are aiming for. Can ANY of that be measured with surface finish gauge? If so, It's far beyond anybody here, even ray with his head in the clouds. I hope that makes sense. |
Oh for sure you can ovsrdo it....which is why IF you are going to plateau hone....you should purchase a way to measure it. The cheapest way....is to buy a cheap 200x USB microscope with a 45° mirror attachment. Cheap being under $100...and will get the job done. You can hone...and in an instant take a picture and see the plateaus develop. If you want a good one and use it a lot for this or other things.....count on $750-900.
Plateau is very specific.....but what RATIO of plateau to valley volume/width/depth will vary by manufacturer and design.
The whole primary point of plateau is to literally knock ALL of the thin sharp peaks off of honed metal. This reduces friction and wear on rings...especially coated rings. It reduces drag on the piston.
The secondary but most important point of plateau honing is to knock the peaks down to about the upper middle range to make flatter shallower areas with higher surface volume with less surface ensrgy requirement where oil can wet onto and pool.
The problem with just normal honing...say with a 280 grit stone......is that the fine grooves...valleys.....are only between 4-8 microns wide. Some even less.
Oil.....because of its viscosity.....even when heated.....cannot flow into grooves that narrow. This is no different thqn having oil tolerances between bearings of say 12 microns....instead of 25.4 microns (.001"). The oil will not flow and the volume is too low.
The oil tends to bead up and flow off...somewhat...on normal hone grooves. It'sIt's good enough for most engines the last 100+ years....but it can be done better with plateau finish.
The plateau finish cuts the surface peaks down so its now a combination of wider flatter spaces were the peaks were ...and shallower valleys. This actually creates higher sslurrace wettability for oil
This is also required on virtually all modern cars...because virtually all of them are using superhard sputtered alloy coatings on the cylindera. If you DON'T knock the peaks off with a plateau finish....it will eat the rings.
Also...plateau finishes allow much more effective use of thinner synthetic oils. The synthetic means lower friction...which already has a hard time staying in the cylinder eall....so with plateau finish you get more effective cylinder wall wettong with the systhetic oils.
Also using lower viscosity oils means less parasitic engine drag. Just last week I worked on a 2009 Honda CRV....using stock oil of 0W-20. It also has very specific cylinder coatings witj plateau finish. Lots of articles out there on this if you look.
So with plateau finish.....if you have no way to measure....you may be doing virtually mothing.....of far too much.
When measuring plateau....its not just one dimension you are measuring. Its five seperate surface characteristics....Ra, Rz, Rv, Rp and Rt.
I watched a handful of racing and industrial diesel engine shops I know....taking these measurements for years. At first I never knew what they were measuring and why. When I asked...they explained.
Years back when i just happened to have access to the same type of tools in my industry....and own them for my work now.....I make ot a point to check my work with these tools because i can. It makes a difference. Not huge......most in equalizing drag between cylinders and knowing when its exact.
I dont build many engines....but a build a specific range and type....and pistons and cylinders do not grow on trees for them. Ray |
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modok
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Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: Interesing experience with Wiseco Customer Service ! |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
The problem with just normal honing...say with a 280 grit stone......is that the fine grooves...valleys.....are only between 4-8 microns wide. Some even less.
Oil.....because of its viscosity.....even when heated.....cannot flow into grooves that narrow. This is no different thqn having oil tolerances between bearings of say 12 microns....instead of 25.4 microns (.001"). The oil will not flow and the volume is too low.
The oil tends to bead up and flow off...somewhat...on normal hone grooves. It'sIt's good enough for most engines the last 100+ years....but it can be done better with plateau finish.
Ray |
That may go a ways to explain why my two step 220 aluminum oxide/280 silicon carbide finish works so well, it has wider base grooves, and they are very OPEN. there is nothing "beading up" on my work
Wet-ability" very important. I didn't think to mention it but actually a good job and a poor one you might notice water beads on the poor surface, and a good one the water spreads out like oil. I have noticed that, and also the color. BRIGHT=good |
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: Interesing experience with Wiseco Customer Service ! |
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| modok wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
The problem with just normal honing...say with a 280 grit stone......is that the fine grooves...valleys.....are only between 4-8 microns wide. Some even less.
Oil.....because of its viscosity.....even when heated.....cannot flow into grooves that narrow. This is no different thqn having oil tolerances between bearings of say 12 microns....instead of 25.4 microns (.001"). The oil will not flow and the volume is too low.
The oil tends to bead up and flow off...somewhat...on normal hone grooves. It'sIt's good enough for most engines the last 100+ years....but it can be done better with plateau finish.
Ray |
That may go a ways to explain why my two step 220 aluminum oxide/280 silicon carbide finish works so well, it has wider base grooves, and they are very OPEN. there is nothing "beading up" on my work
Wet-ability" very important. I didn't think to mention it but actually a good job and a poor one you might notice water beads on the poor surface, and a good one the water spreads out like oil. I have noticed that, and also the color. BRIGHT=good |
Very good catch! Water...clean distilled water of neutral PH .....has a rating of 72 dynes per centimeter of surface tension. If you add 10% ethyl alochol it drops to 42 dynes. The surtace dyne level is a measure of the surface wettability/surface energy/surface tension.
Oddly...even though I have surface dyne testing materials.....I have never tested a clean cylinder. Texture.....does not greatly matter when measuring dyne level. It may look like a lot more surface area....but its not that much.
. But surface micro profile like we are talking here....increases surface area and wettability alot.
For instance ...water having 72 dynes/cm or energy....is very high. Normal plastic surfaces you might paint or print in have to have an average of 36 dynes/cm minimum....with about 44 dynes maximum.....or huge convoluted texture. On a surface with no oils or wetting agents or soap residue at room temp......water should lay out in shallow beads at about 30 dynes.
Oils have an even different profile....but the physics are similar.
I am not suggesting that one should start dyne testing your machined surfaces.....although it takes only ahout 2 minutes.....just that doing it a few times may actually teach one something.
By the way...dyne testing entails a range of liquids each in little bottles. Each is a solution of water and a very specific volume by specific gravity.....of an acid. The more acid the liquid becomes....the less surface tension it has and the flatter it wets out and makes/keeps a continuous film that does not break up into beads. My kit starts at 26 dynes/cm and goes up to 52 dynes/cm in 2 dyne steps.
With a clean swab.....you make a stripe with wach liquid and stop watch time in for two minutes. For instance...testing a metal or plastic surface you may end up with a clean solid stripe at 26, 28, 30, 32 and 36 dynes.....but at 38...its starting to seperate into striations...a weak 38. It will seperate further at 40 into large "islands".....42 into medium islands and anything above that....into tiny little beads that stand porud of the surtace. That surface could be said to have a sopid 38 dynes of surface energy.
You then take 40, 42 and 44 only.... and test in a differnt spot to see if the result repeats.
Ray |
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Boolean
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Interesting experience with Wiseco Customer Service ! |
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Very good info!
I always (almost) followed manufacturers instructions, but also always felt I wanted to know more about the reasoning behind.
That's where gains can be made.
_________________
I strive for perfection. Excellence will not be tolerated!
Build thread here:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=529379 |
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modok
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Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: Interesting experience with Wiseco Customer Service ! |
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Dyne testing! way cool. i didn't realize I was doing that, but actually when I am rinsing off the blocks I AM  because it's a basic solution, so as it dilutes, the surface tension gets progressively higher the more I rinse.
Seems like temperature is a huge variable in that, right? |
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michla
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Posts: 331
Location: Wasilla, AK (yes, there's drag racing up here !)
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: Interesting experience with Wiseco Customer Service ! |
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my head hurts.....  |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21512
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: Interesting experience with Wiseco Customer Service ! |
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| modok wrote: |
Dyne testing! way cool. i didn't realize I was doing that, but actually when I am rinsing off the blocks I AM:D
I think temperature is a huge variable in that, right? |
Yes. There is a conversion chart somehwere I can dig out.
The interesting thing about so many things in my industry....that are likewise similar to something like ....honing cylinders......is that many people do not own all of the little gauges they "could".
With time being money....and for a run of the mill job....the law of diminishing returns for effort......on most jobs its just not worth it......IF....you can employ a formulaic method and hit 75-85 percent span of nearly perfect each time.
Like.....honing with the same machine, fixtures, lubricant/coolant, anbient temps, speed, plunge and rpm and stones.....for the same number of strokes......will give just about the same result...say....75-80% of the time.....maybe more.
The wildcards are variahles in metal materials, variables in ambient conditions, variables in thr chemistry of coolants and lube.....variables in the wear or quality of the stones. For 85% of engines...it's probably good enough.
But if its a high dollar engine or one employing cylinders or pistons that are fairly unobtanium.....it would be worthwhile to shoot low.....stop and measure....and hone some more to hit an exact target. Ray |
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modok
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Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: Interesting experience with Wiseco Customer Service ! |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
The interesting thing about so many things in my industry....that are likewise similar to something like ....honing cylinders......is that many people do not own all of the little gauges they "could".
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I don't know if more raw info is the answer.
We have done something right in this thread, that we didn't do last time. I wonder what that was?
IMO, simple problem:
Machinists hone cylinders, and most good machinists......aren't good at communication.
Somehow, we have done well this time.
Thank you. It may be the ethanol taking(decreasing my surface tension?) but, I mean it. |
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oldschool5er
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:27 pm Post subject: Re: Interesing experience with Wiseco Customer Service ! |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| modok wrote: |
| "Physical vapor deposition" |
Actually....they use APCVD for the most part depending on what is alloyed with the chrome.
We use vapor dep in many of the industries I work within. PVD....0hysical va0or deposition is fairly generic.
APCVD....atmospheric pressure chemical vapor dep.....is used when they can....because it,doea not require cryogenic vaccum or purge gases. Much cheaper.
Also....a lot of specific platings like this...especually when very specifc microscopic surface texture and profile are either allowedallowed or required.....is done by "sputtering".....and some plated rings and cylinders are this way (Ford has some sputtered cylinders).
Sputtering is usually done in inert gas atmosphere with "targets" made of one or more pure metals.....that are zapped by extreme voltage arcs to create a plasma spray of very pure content and uniform grain.....that sprays the part and creates the plating.
Ray |
Interesting off topic fact. In the 1990's we used CVD to plate a substrate with Diamond when I worked at GE Superabrasives. We were experimenting using the substrate for heat sinks for IC circuits being put on them. Methane being the inert gas in the Plasma.
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michla
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| Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: Interesting experience with Wiseco Customer Service ! |
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not off-topic.... 
I ordered the Total Seal set today---PlasmaMoly top and gapless 2nd (yes I know about thin-rail ring flutter) so the 1st and 2nd rings that were in the set that came from Wiseco are now up for grabs ifin anybody's interested in them. Nicely made rings, I just don't want to use chrome-faced for my application. |
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modok
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: Interesting experience with Wiseco Customer Service ! |
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I think you have a point. I would not use a 2mm wide top ring either, if it was chrome faced. Maybe you can give them to somebody who is building an air comrpessor or something.
But if it was 1.2 or 1.5mm wide tho, chrome would work great.
Gapless second? Well, I don't want to get into THAT again, but only approx 25% of folks who try those say they work well, I'm not one of them. |
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michla
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Location: Wasilla, AK (yes, there's drag racing up here !)
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: Interesting experience with Wiseco Customer Service ! |
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| modok wrote: |
Gapless second? Well, I don't want to get into THAT again, but only approx 25% of folks who try those say they work well, I'm not one of them. |
I've had really good luck with them but I have heard bad issues with that thin rail and ring flutter at higher RPMS. Many swear they're only for street use. |
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modok
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: Interesting experience with Wiseco Customer Service ! |
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There is three trains of thought on the function of a second ring
They can be
-a spare compression ring
-an oil scraping ring
-decorative accessory
I think they are best as oil scrapers, they do sure as day become compression rings if the top ring is not doing a good job, but that happens rarely with today's piston ring and air filter technology.
Many engines simply do not have second rings, such as cummins v8, and many very good Airies racing pistons and some motorcycles, and in some racing classes that require all stock parts, a trick is to take the second ring and put it in a junk block and torch it until it loses all spring force, and use it, so it's not actually doing anything, but the rules require it to be there.
In some apps you can get away without one, others you can't. Depends on a lot of things.
Rings twist as force is applied, so the top ring will be barrel shaped no matter it it was to start or not, and that means it hydroplanes easily over oil. The second ring has little force on it, so it's bottom edge can remain sharp, and the sharp edge removes excess oil. 99% of engines use "napier", or "reverse twist" type second ring, and I don't know which is better but it's one or the other. You should try reduced radial thickness second and/or out the new "conform" design from total seal in the top groove. It might be a good way to have the heat transfer of a wide ring with the flexibility of a skinny ring, which would be good, IF it works. |
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modok
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| Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:26 pm Post subject: Re: Interesting experience with Wiseco Customer Service ! |
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Yet again, after some ethanol consumption, I had a thought, which I will share without reservation.
The gap-less second ring could function in a similar way to the "reverse torsional tape face" design of second ring, and could have a face like a Napier second.
The design of the napier second is that the face is tapered, yet profile is tapered and bottm relieved so contact is HIGH.
And the deign of the reverse twist.... is the bottom inside corner is relieved, allowing greater twist on the downstroke than the upstroke.
It could function similar, provided the machining is such that second ring main part IS taper face, and the spacer does not contact the cylinder(forming profile like a Napier),
and on the bottom it should sit on the spacer and NOT sit on the main ring( so contact of inside bottom corner is relieved,like reverse twist).
So it could work like both of the best deisgns, IF they get the machining right, and that is tough, and may explain.......the truth. The idea of a gapless second ring works by accident, and that is nothing to be ashamed of. MOST of the great innovations are discovered by accident. But if the machining does not achieve the conditions I described, it could work worse, and that may explain why most experienced engine builders have negative experience of them.
No fear, no pride, just the truth.
May it serve you well.
http://korihandbook.federalmogul.com/en/section_19.htm |
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michla
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Location: Wasilla, AK (yes, there's drag racing up here !)
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:07 am Post subject: Re: Interesting experience with Wiseco Customer Service ! |
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| modok wrote: |
There is three trains of thought on the function of a second ring
They can be
-a spare compression ring
-an oil scraping ring
-decorative accessory
I think they are best as oil scrapers, they do sure as day become compression rings if the top ring is not doing a good job, but that happens rarely with today's piston ring and air filter technology.
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You never cease to amaze me Glen, with your wealth of words and wisdom, but nonetheless I just consider it icing on the cake (unnecessary but you hope it does some good even if it does make you fat!) When it comes right down to it, most all of the modifications to the basic idea are always "snake oil" and it's just a matter of how plausible the marketing is I suppose.  |
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raygreenwood
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Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: Interesting experience with Wiseco Customer Service ! |
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| michla wrote: |
| modok wrote: |
There is three trains of thought on the function of a second ring
They can be
-a spare compression ring
-an oil scraping ring
-decorative accessory
I think they are best as oil scrapers, they do sure as day become compression rings if the top ring is not doing a good job, but that happens rarely with today's piston ring and air filter technology.
|
You never cease to amaze me Glen, with your wealth of words and wisdom, but nonetheless I just consider it icing on the cake (unnecessary but you hope it does some good even if it does make you fat!) When it comes right down to it, most all of the modifications to the basic idea are always "snake oil" and it's just a matter of how plausible the marketing is I suppose. |
I wouldn't call them "snake oil"...... .....but many types of modificstions.....are hard to prove the success or effect of without expensive equipment. And....its usually proven ....visually....in a lab....on a workbench.
Proving really esoteric mods in an operating engine....is very hard....and takes many test runs.
Typically the only way street level/real life builders can really prove a mofification they made of bought actually works.....is one of three ways:
1. The modification benefit is obvious that it REALLY works and the change in engine output on a known engine design with no other mods.... is night and day better
2. It seems to change nothing output wise.....but makes very noticable longevity or fuel efficiency changes to a well known engine combination with no other mods.
3. It makes tunability of an existing engine combo and design noticeably more accurate and simpler because of more even and balanced running with no other mods.
The problem is that some of the "refinements".....may really work....but add maybe 1/2% to 1% real improvement....virtually unnoticable and hard to measure on a street car. Probably only measureable on a high hp racing engine......and probably only useful when added to a good size stack of other 1/2% to 1% improvements.
In other words....only really useful when you are trying to wring out every last percentage of efficiecny. Ray |
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michla
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Location: Wasilla, AK (yes, there's drag racing up here !)
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Interesting experience with Wiseco Customer Service ! |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Typically the only way street level/real life builders can really prove a mofification they made of bought actually works.....is one of three ways:
1. The modification benefit is obvious that it REALLY works and the change in engine output on a known engine design with no other mods.... is night and day better
2. It seems to change nothing output wise.....but makes very noticable longevity or fuel efficiency changes to a well known engine combination with no other mods.
3. It makes tunability of an existing engine combo and design noticeably more accurate and simpler because of more even and balanced running with no other mods.
Ray |
you forgot #4:
It makes you sleep better at night
!!  |
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mark tucker
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Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Interesting experience with Wiseco Customer Service ! |
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| michla wrote: |
| modok wrote: |
Gapless second? Well, I don't want to get into THAT again, but only approx 25% of folks who try those say they work well, I'm not one of them. |
I've had really good luck with them but I have heard bad issues with that thin rail and ring flutter at higher RPMS. Many swear they're only for street use. |
if your thin rail flutters you probably have a ring groove issue. like rong size rings in the groove. also depending on the piston's 1st ring land thickness you can add a accumulator groove to it. I wonder why my extreamly expensive mahle motorsports racing pistons have thin rings.....thinnist Ive ever had @ .030" for 1st&2ndrings&I dont recall the oil ring but there probably .020 each with expancer/spacer between them. they must just flutter around the track like a butterfly....or sting like a bee. I will probably bee adding accumulator grooves to all my pistons that dont have them. my mahle motorsports have a very small one and Ive seen some extreamly large ones too.they work.
as for the 25% that say the total seal rings dont work.... they also tend to have other issues they blame on something else....or possiably just bore cylinders and put a brush hone(aka...plateau hone  ) and let it eat. when in reality they should just be playing with playdough while pondering plato...or pluto..the dog. it's funny how somany good things just dont work when it's done rong. |
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