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Vw1600dellortoGR Samba Member
Joined: May 01, 2012 Posts: 267
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Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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I came aware of a company in holland that sells an 20w50 oil but it is a API SF/CD spec oil and I was wondering if it will be a good idea, the site says that
• Stable viscosity index.
• Good protection against rust, corrosion and wear.
• Good dispergency and detergency properties.
• Good antifoam properties. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50260
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Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Vw1600dellortoGR wrote: |
I came aware of a company in holland that sells an 20w50 oil but it is a API SF/CD spec oil and I was wondering if it will be a good idea, the site says that
• Stable viscosity index.
• Good protection against rust, corrosion and wear.
• Good dispergency and detergency properties.
• Good antifoam properties. |
Why throw out thirty years of technical improvements to your oil? SL rated oils (high mileage oils) are available most anywhere as are SM/SN oils with viscosities with a first number of >10w or with a second number of >30, do avoid the few "Resource Conserving" oils out there which seem to be mostly found in 0w40 and 10w40 weights. |
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Vw1600dellortoGR Samba Member
Joined: May 01, 2012 Posts: 267
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Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Wildthings wrote: |
Vw1600dellortoGR wrote: |
I came aware of a company in holland that sells an 20w50 oil but it is a API SF/CD spec oil and I was wondering if it will be a good idea, the site says that
• Stable viscosity index.
• Good protection against rust, corrosion and wear.
• Good dispergency and detergency properties.
• Good antifoam properties. |
Why throw out thirty years of technical improvements to your oil? SL rated oils (high mileage oils) are available most anywhere as are SM/SN oils with viscosities with a first number of >10w or with a second number of >30, do avoid the few "Resource Conserving" oils out there which seem to be mostly found in 0w40 and 10w40 weights. |
Because it might be an oil good enough for our cams and followers |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50260
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Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Vw1600dellortoGR wrote: |
Wildthings wrote: |
Vw1600dellortoGR wrote: |
I came aware of a company in holland that sells an 20w50 oil but it is a API SF/CD spec oil and I was wondering if it will be a good idea, the site says that
• Stable viscosity index.
• Good protection against rust, corrosion and wear.
• Good dispergency and detergency properties.
• Good antifoam properties. |
Why throw out thirty years of technical improvements to your oil? SL rated oils (high mileage oils) are available most anywhere as are SM/SN oils with viscosities with a first number of >10w or with a second number of >30, do avoid the few "Resource Conserving" oils out there which seem to be mostly found in 0w40 and 10w40 weights. |
Because it might be an oil good enough for our cams and followers |
I would think you would be better off with a carefully selected modern oil, particularly a modern synthetic that will just shrug off the heat they might see in an aircooled engine. |
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Vw1600dellortoGR Samba Member
Joined: May 01, 2012 Posts: 267
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Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Wildthings wrote: |
Vw1600dellortoGR wrote: |
Wildthings wrote: |
Vw1600dellortoGR wrote: |
I came aware of a company in holland that sells an 20w50 oil but it is a API SF/CD spec oil and I was wondering if it will be a good idea, the site says that
• Stable viscosity index.
• Good protection against rust, corrosion and wear.
• Good dispergency and detergency properties.
• Good antifoam properties. |
Why throw out thirty years of technical improvements to your oil? SL rated oils (high mileage oils) are available most anywhere as are SM/SN oils with viscosities with a first number of >10w or with a second number of >30, do avoid the few "Resource Conserving" oils out there which seem to be mostly found in 0w40 and 10w40 weights. |
Because it might be an oil good enough for our cams and followers |
I would think you would be better off with a carefully selected modern oil, particularly a modern synthetic that will just shrug off the heat they might see in an aircooled engine. |
In Europe.there is mutch less variety in oils so I can't find any ones that have enough zddp the ones I can find are very regular oils |
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rockerarm Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009 Posts: 3552 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Hi. I guess that Europe doesn't have the spec's that the USA has? Do any of these oil companies that may specifically be in Europe have web site where one can look at a spec sheet that breaks down many of the additives? I know that Chevron and Shell are world wide companies. Are their oils available to you with any interest? If you have a certain companies oil product that you are interested a site you may find of interest is www.bobistheoilguy.com, specifically the VOA (virgin oil analysis) section.
Bill. |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50260
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Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Vw1600dellortoGR wrote: |
Wildthings wrote: |
Vw1600dellortoGR wrote: |
Wildthings wrote: |
Vw1600dellortoGR wrote: |
I came aware of a company in holland that sells an 20w50 oil but it is a API SF/CD spec oil and I was wondering if it will be a good idea, the site says that
• Stable viscosity index.
• Good protection against rust, corrosion and wear.
• Good dispergency and detergency properties.
• Good antifoam properties. |
Why throw out thirty years of technical improvements to your oil? SL rated oils (high mileage oils) are available most anywhere as are SM/SN oils with viscosities with a first number of >10w or with a second number of >30, do avoid the few "Resource Conserving" oils out there which seem to be mostly found in 0w40 and 10w40 weights. |
Because it might be an oil good enough for our cams and followers |
I would think you would be better off with a carefully selected modern oil, particularly a modern synthetic that will just shrug off the heat they might see in an aircooled engine. |
In Europe.there is mutch less variety in oils so I can't find any ones that have enough zddp the ones I can find are very regular oils |
An oil with 1100 PPM (parts per million) zinc should do fine, less is there are other antiwear additives. |
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Aussiebug Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2002 Posts: 2162 Location: Adelaide Australia
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Posted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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You could always try Australian Penrite oils. They make a huge range of oils for classic and vintage cars including a specific oil for bugs. They note "full zinc" on oils for cars which need ZDDP.
Need oil for an old Harley, model T Ford or old Jaguar, they have those too.
There stockist in the USA is
Restoration Supply
Highland Valley Way
Escondido CA
Ph (800) 3067008 _________________ Rob
Rob and Dave's aircooled VW pages
Repairs and maintenance for the home mechanic
http://www.vw-resource.com |
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jacoby1007 Samba Member
Joined: July 28, 2016 Posts: 105 Location: North Hollywood, CA
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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:04 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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I feel like I spent the last 3 days reading oil fourms and I still dont feel I found the best oil weight for Southern California. Yes I could have missed something so sorry if it is already posted within the 200+ pages. I also searched my keywords and found a little info but nothing that will help me sleep at night. Engine is older and already broke in. I am also looking at getting a filter and gauge setup but do not have it yet. Not sure if that would change my weight or type of oil.
1. Socal year round oil (is there a type?) 20w-50 15w40 something else?
2. This is for my daily driver 1600DP and I will also be getting a 74-75 Bus. (when I find the one) Should I use a different weight for the pancake engine in the bus?
Think I am going to go with Brad Penn due to so many good reviews on here.
Thanks! |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50260
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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:30 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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jacoby1007 wrote: |
I feel like I spent the last 3 days reading oil fourms and I still dont feel I found the best oil weight for Southern California. Yes I could have missed something so sorry if it is already posted within the 200+ pages. I also searched my keywords and found a little info but nothing that will help me sleep at night. Engine is older and already broke in. I am also looking at getting a filter and gauge setup but do not have it yet. Not sure if that would change my weight or type of oil.
1. Socal year round oil (is there a type?) 20w-50 15w40 something else?
2. This is for my daily driver 1600DP and I will also be getting a 74-75 Bus. (when I find the one) Should I use a different weight for the pancake engine in the bus?
Think I am going to go with Brad Penn due to so many good reviews on here.
Thanks! |
Both the Type 1 and Type 4 engines have similar oil cooling systems that are dependent on fairly low pressure for oil to pass through the cooler. If you do something that jacks the pressure up less oil will pass through the cooler and thus the oil will run hotter and the level of engine protection within limits will be no better than if you had run thinner oil. You want an oil that gives you a minimum of 10 psi per thousand RPMs when the engine is hot, you don't need or want an oil that gives a whole lot more oil pressure than that. Synthetic oils can handle more heat than can dino oils so offer a higher level of protection in severe conditions and will keep
the engine cleaner.
Maybe start with a 5w30 "high mileage" oil and see what your oil pressure runs and go from there. |
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rockerarm Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009 Posts: 3552 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Hi. Mr Jacoby, you bring up some very valid points, even if you didn't intend to.
An ideal oil weight may depend on many factors. One easily method is the 10psi (oil pressure) per 1000rpm, when the engine is fully warmed up.
Another topic is oil brands. A $5k to $10k engine's owner might want a different (expensive) oil than a completely stock (over the counter oil) style engine. Each of these engine's may demand a different lubricant. The actual engine's builder, or cam/lifter supplier could dictate the required oil desired.
Breaking in a new engine's cam/lifters could require a more robust oil vs the oil for the same engines routine maintenance.
Another key item here is product loyalty. You will find folks will not budge from what that person has successfully used in the past. I admit I was one of those "sheeple" who followed what I "was told was good".
Hope this helps, Bill |
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wcfvw69 Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004 Posts: 13383 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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jacoby1007 wrote: |
I feel like I spent the last 3 days reading oil fourms and I still dont feel I found the best oil weight for Southern California. Yes I could have missed something so sorry if it is already posted within the 200+ pages. I also searched my keywords and found a little info but nothing that will help me sleep at night. Engine is older and already broke in. I am also looking at getting a filter and gauge setup but do not have it yet. Not sure if that would change my weight or type of oil.
1. Socal year round oil (is there a type?) 20w-50 15w40 something else?
2. This is for my daily driver 1600DP and I will also be getting a 74-75 Bus. (when I find the one) Should I use a different weight for the pancake engine in the bus?
Think I am going to go with Brad Penn due to so many good reviews on here.
Thanks! |
If your engines are in good shape with tight bearing clearances, all you need is 10W-30 oil. I'm in hot Phoenix and run it year around. I run Valvoline VR1 racing oil for the Zinc. You do want an oil that has more zinc than what's in most oils today. Brad Penn is well thought of for flat tappet cam engines like our VW's. _________________ Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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misterkey wrote: |
Here: Oil Viscosity What brand and type of oil do you recommend ? What should be the oil viscosity for a 74 Thing with original engion? |
Not sure if the "Thing" should run a special oil, don't see why any kind of USA SAE Automobile oil for gas engines wouldn't work, I was running Castrol oil 5W30 plus ZDDP but switched to a full synthetic Mobile 1 0W40 which has enough ZDDP in it. The Mobile 1 does not stay in the engine any better though than the 5W30 GTX did though. I think VR-1 was the oil of preference for the Air Cooled engines though. I don't think you can find that anywhere anymore. _________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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rockerarm Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009 Posts: 3552 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Hi. As Bill states he likes the Valvoline VR1. It looks to me to be an adequate oil for oem engines and mild motors as well. Looks to have adequate zinc/phosphorus/calcium/etc for a street car. Lots of viscosity choices also.
I've seen this oil at numerous stores but haven't compared it with the spec sheets. Napa is a big supplier of this oil, I've heard.
Here is the spec sheet.
http://content.valvoline.com/pdf/vr1_racing.pd
Hope this helps, Bill |
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rockerarm Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009 Posts: 3552 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Danwvw wrote: |
misterkey wrote: |
Here: Oil Viscosity What brand and type of oil do you recommend ? What should be the oil viscosity for a 74 Thing with original engion? |
Not sure if the "Thing" should run a special oil, don't see why any kind of USA SAE Automobile oil for gas engines wouldn't work, I was running Castrol oil 5W30 plus ZDDP but switched to a full synthetic Mobile 1 0W40 which has enough ZDDP in it. The Mobile 1 does not stay in the engine any better though than the 5W30 GTX did though. I think VR-1 was the oil of preference for the Air Cooled engines though. I don't think you can find that anywhere anymore. |
Hi. A VW Thing with the standard type 1 engine should fit the same requirements as many other type 1 engines.
Castrol GTX's oil is praised my some and criticized by some, as it does not meet some basic requirements for a flat tappet engine, and that's Castrol's wording, not mine. But many people swear by its history within the air-cooled community. Castrol's 30wt used to be called the VW oil. The 20w-50 had to be in second place here.
For a synthetic, Mobil 1's 0w-40 has to be the gold standard here. It is the only Mobil 1 oil that is recommended by Porsche.
Bill |
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rockerarm Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009 Posts: 3552 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Hi. Maybe I can assure some folks here on lubricants for many production/oem or even mildly built engines.
1- I worked for a couple of VW dealers back in the days when VWoA was transitioning from air-cooled to water-cooled. These dealers were pumping 20w-50 oils in the Los Angeles area. With the introduction of the 1977 Rabbit diesel engine the dealers did not make a change in the lubricants used. We used the 20w-50 passenger car oil in these diesel engines. RESULT: I performed no engine repairs based off the use of this oil.
2- I worked for a gov't agency that utilized passenger cars, SUV's, light pick-up truck's, etc for their fleet. The motor oil was a 15w-40, old school, diesel spec oil. Ford motor company once they heard of the lubricants being used on their fleet stated there would not be any warranty, as Ford was recommending a 20wt oil for their new fleet, if an engine failure occurred.
RESULT: In over 20 years I saw no engine failures that could be attributed to a too thick of a viscosity. Not one vehicle went to the dealer for an oil related failure.
3- I worked, briefly, as a military contractor, and assisting the light wheel mechanics at a motor pool viewed that the oil of choice was a "recycled" or "reclaimed" motor oil for all of the diesel powered military vehicles (Humvee's and larger). RESULT: I never saw an oil related issue with the use of these oils or operator failure while in the field.
So, bottom line, or endstate, is the motor oil choice may not be as big a heartburn as some sambanistas believe! But there are definitely oils to stay away from.
Hooah. Bill |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50260
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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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rockerarm wrote: |
So, bottom line, or endstate, is the motor oil choice may not be as big a heartburn as some sambanistas believe! But there are definitely oils to stay away from.
Hooah. Bill |
Having insufficient oil in the crankcase is worse than using the cheapest oil you can find at Walmart or on supermarket shelves. |
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wcfvw69 Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004 Posts: 13383 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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I'm really surprised VW dealers were using 20w-50 weight in an aircooled VW with its sensitivities to oil pressure's effect on the oil relief valve. The higher the oil pressure, the longer it takes for the oil to heat up and thin enough (and the pressure to drop enough) to allow oil through the oil cooler byway of the relief valve.
I've never run any kind of 50 weight oil in 35 years of owning air cooled VW's. Living in Phoenix, I WAS running 10w-40 in my VW's. I read that it could create higher oil temperatures. I dropped to 10W-30 and saw about a 8-10* oil temperature reduction. Now, it's important to be clear that my engines have all been single relief cases so maybe the dual relief cases are not as sensitive to thick oil? _________________ Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
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Danwvw Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012 Posts: 8892 Location: Oregon Coast
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Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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I've run 10W40 and 20W50 years ago in old engines! Thank goodness though they had 21mm oil pumps! _________________ 1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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vugbug68 Samba Member
Joined: June 25, 2006 Posts: 2696 Location: sacramento
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Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2016 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Official "What oil / additives should I use" topic |
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Does anyone have pictures of damage caused by a certain kind of oil? Not an old engine with worn journals and bearings but a new engine that was built correctly and broke in correctly. The only explanation for the damage is the oil.
Just curious???
I've built several VW engines over the years and never had a cam go flat or a lifter get damaged. In fact I've rarely seen damaged cam lobes or lifters on old beat up engines I've torn apart. _________________ 71 Super - Backroad Thrasher
66 Corvair - Weekend Cruiser
90 4 Runner - Muddin |
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