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KSKI
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Joined: June 29, 2015
Posts: 332
Location: WV
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 Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:06 pm Post subject: Getting lights on but no ignition |
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Hello- I'm getting red light on gen and no ignition
When I turn the key - headlights work but no sound when key is turned over
Alternator or generator issue??
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jason_hamilton
Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2003
Posts: 1118
Location: Abbotsford, BC
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:14 pm Post subject: Re: Getting lights on but no ignition |
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Check under your rear seat on the driver's side. There should be a red wire going from the sill area across to the passenger side where the starter solenoid is hidden under the firewall. The red wire has a connector in it that can sometimes come loose. Should be right there when you lift the seat.
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Jason Hamilton
1969 Karmann Ghia coupe
@MiddleAgedHoon |
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Starbucket
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007
Posts: 4026
Location: WA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: Getting lights on but no ignition |
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| Are the headlights bright or dim? Battery might be almost dead. |
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KSKI
Samba Member
Joined: June 29, 2015
Posts: 332
Location: WV
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: Getting lights on but no ignition |
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Hi red wire was connected- sending a pic of under the front
Do I have the wires right? Also there is a brown wire
See pic - what is it and where does it go? Could it
Be related to the non starting issue? Many thanks
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31379
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: Getting lights on but no ignition |
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| KSKI wrote: |
Hello- I'm getting red light on gen and no ignition
When I turn the key - headlights work but no sound when key is turned over
Alternator or generator issue?? |
Whoa !!! Don't go near the generator or alternator now.
Like Jason said: you must determine whether the battery is OK (take it in for a test under load, free at O'Reilly/Autozone) and if it's OK, then troubleshoot further.
Right now you have a "no crank" situation, the engine is not spinning. So first the battery must be tested correctly. Only after that is done can the no crank situation be troubleshot.
Once the engine is cranking, only then should one worry about the "run" circuit to the coil positive terminal #15.
If the battery is dead due to malfunctioning of the charging system, then after the battery issue is remedied then the charging system can be investigated.
Don't just throw parts at it, will cost you more $$$, and "maybe" you'll stumble upon the issue !!!
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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KSKI
Samba Member
Joined: June 29, 2015
Posts: 332
Location: WV
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Getting lights on but no ignition |
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Ok- thanks I won't go near the gen and alt- no crank is right- being a novice
as if you couldn't tell- do I have the wires connected in the right places on my harness? also what is the double brown wire hanging loose? what about the striped wire that seems too stretched out? Thanks again! Will take battery to auto zone.
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Starbucket
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007
Posts: 4026
Location: WA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Getting lights on but no ignition |
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| The wiring diagrams are located at top of home page. then compare colors of wires coming from fuse box to yours. easy. |
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jason_hamilton
Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2003
Posts: 1118
Location: Abbotsford, BC
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: Getting lights on but no ignition |
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KSKI, we'll walk you through this. First off, anytime you see those crimped plastic bits next to the wire terminal you know the wiring's been messed around with.
First off, what year is your car? I'm going to guess 1970?
No, some of your wires are not in the correct places. Your headlights are a little mixed up. Let's call your terminal on your fusebox 1 to 10, from left to right closes to the camera. Six and eight should be reversed. It should go yellow, yellow (low beams), white, white (high beams). You see that little bit of snipped blue wire attached to the chubbier white one? That's supposed to connect to bulb K1 in your speedo gauge and it should light up when the high beams are on.
The two brown wires are ground wires, but I'd have to see where they start and stop to tell you what for.
The "stretched" white wire with the black tracer is probably going to your left rear marker light.
Now, getting back to your no start. What's your experience with car electrics? Do you have any diagnostic tools, like a test light or a voltmeter?
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Jason Hamilton
1969 Karmann Ghia coupe
@MiddleAgedHoon |
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Starbucket
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007
Posts: 4026
Location: WA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Getting lights on but no ignition |
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| I guess the first question we should ask...when was the last time the car started and every thing worked? |
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KSKI
Samba Member
Joined: June 29, 2015
Posts: 332
Location: WV
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:37 am Post subject: Re: Getting lights on but no ignition |
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Thanks all for the info- it's a 69 vert- started for me two
Months ago - I was trying to install a Bluetooth device playable in
My cassette radio- did I blow something because shortly after I
Monkeyed with the wires it wouldn't start- left side red light came on
As did oil light but key would not crank it. Figured battery was dead only after purchasing two months ago so to it to mechanic who'd said it was drained and
Recharged it. Now I put it back in and still not getting Ny crank.
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: Getting lights on but no ignition |
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| jason_hamilton wrote: |
| ... Let's call your terminal on your fusebox 1 to 10, from left to right closes to the camera. |
Jason's instructions were right on, but I would suggest that you number your fuses correctly. When sitting in the driver's seat looking at the fuse box they are numbered left-to-right 1~10. This means from the trunk side of the fuse box they are numbered right-to-left 1~10. I don't want to confuse things but it is always better to stick with the OE designations.
For the '69 ignition switch there are three wires you are concerned with...
(thick) #30 red wire - this wire starts at the headlight switch and provides constant 12v+ to the ignition switch.
#15 black wire - this is the ignition switched 12v+ that powers most things in the car. The black wire runs from the ignition switch to the INPUT side of #9 or #10 fuse (I can tell from the pic that the top edge of your fuse box is the INPUT side). You can see that the top side of fuses #9 and #10 are connected by a brass bar. The second black wire here runs to the ignition coil
EDIT: After correcting Jason above I made the same mistake.  
The black #15 wire from the ignition switch runs to the #1 & #2 fuses on the '69 fuse box. In the pic above these are the two fuses on the right side.
(thick) #50 red/black wire - this is the starter solenoid wire. The ignition switch will power this wire when the key is turned to the START position. This wire may connected to a solid red wire that runs all the way to the junction under the rear seat before finally reaching the #50 terminal on the starter solenoid.
Run the following tests. You will need a voltmeter ($10 at your FLAPS or home improvement store). Or at a minimum, a 12v test lamp (non-LED type).
Find the same #50 junction under the rear seat that Jason mentioned earlier. Separate the wires from the junction.
With your voltmeter connected to the end of the #50 red wire that comes from the left side of the car... test this wire for 12v+ while you turn the ignition key to the START position.
If you read a solid 12.0v or higher. All is good.
If you read less than 11.0v, intermittent voltage or no voltage, your ignition switch or the wires from the ignition switch are old/dirty. You need to clean connections and/or replace/repair your ignition switch.
You can move the the wires behind the dash and find the junction where the red/black wire and red wire come together. Redo the same tests on the red/black wire coming from the ignition switch.
Switch to the other red wire that runs to the starter solenoid. When this wire is powered, it activates the starter and cranks the engine. With the car in neutral and parking brake set... touch the end of this red wire to the battery positive (+) terminal. There will be a spark and the engine should start cranking. If this works every time you touch the wire to the battery, your starter is fine.
Lastly, turn your ignition switch to the ON position. Walk around to the engine. Look at the ignition coil. It has two small terminals with multiple wires connected: #1 (-) and #15 (+). There should be a thicker black wire amongst those connected to the #15 terminal. Disconnect this wire and test the end of the wire for 12.0v when you have the ignition ON, but also while you turn the key to the START position. This black wire is one of the black wires at the INPUT side of #9 or #10 fuse.
Run these tests and report back your results.
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
Last edited by ashman40 on Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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KSKI
Samba Member
Joined: June 29, 2015
Posts: 332
Location: WV
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: Getting lights on but no ignition |
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Forgot to mention an important note- the previous
Owner removed the original starter
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helowrench
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Joined: August 27, 2003
Posts: 567
Location: dallas texas
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:16 am Post subject: Re: Getting lights on but no ignition |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
Find the same #50 junction under the rear seat that Jason mentioned earlier. Separate the wires from the junction.
With your voltmeter connected to the end of the #50 red wire that comes from the left side of the car... test this wire for 12v+ while you turn the ignition key to the START position.
If you read a solid 12.0v or higher. All is good.
If you read less than 11.0v, intermittent voltage or no voltage, your ignition switch or the wires from the ignition switch are old/dirty. You need to clean connections and/or replace/repair your ignition switch.
You can move the the wires behind the dash and find the junction where the red/black wire and red wire come together. Redo the same tests on the red/black wire coming from the ignition switch.
Switch to the other red wire that runs to the starter solenoid. When this wire is powered, it activates the starter and cranks the engine. With the car in neutral and parking brake set... touch the end of this red wire to the battery positive (+) terminal. There will be a spark and the engine should start cranking. If this works every time you touch the wire to the battery, your starter is fine.
Lastly, turn your ignition switch to the ON position. Walk around to the engine. Look at the ignition coil. It has two small terminals with multiple wires connected: #1 (-) and #15 (+). There should be a thicker black wire amongst those connected to the #15 terminal. Disconnect this wire and test the end of the wire for 12.0v when you have the ignition ON, but also while you turn the key to the START position. This black wire is one of the black wires at the INPUT side of #9 or #10 fuse.
Run these tests and report back your results. |
Ashman hit the nail on the head here.
PO could have either jacked up the wires on the dash, or put this wire on the wrong place when he/she installed the starter.
This test listed above will determine whether you have a problem with the back of the car, or the front.
I always do the starter side first, as it is the easiest effort to verify a working section.
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70 bug vert for wifey
73Thing bucket o rust
73 914 1.7
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bigdog1962
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Joined: August 11, 2010
Posts: 1586
Location: Augusta, Georgia
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:25 am Post subject: Re: Getting lights on but no ignition |
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As Starbucket says above and as Grandpa Pete told me, get a wiring diagram and compare it to yours. I was having electrical problems and figured I might as well check everything - which I found more problems that I fixed. Take a picture of your wiring diagram and have it blown up and laminated. Use a marker to check off what you've checked. Here's a picture of mine - maybe a bit overkill but you get the idea.
Then, having checked everything out, you'll rest a little easier. And if you run into problems, there are people here to help.
I did this without knowing how to use a voltmeter. Easy to learn.
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Oprn wrote: I'm getting to the age that any self propelled woman (no wheel chair or walker) looks HOT!! Oooo! look at that Babe! She made it from the dining room all the way to the TV room without help!! Hubba, hubba!! |
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KSKI
Samba Member
Joined: June 29, 2015
Posts: 332
Location: WV
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Getting lights on but no ignition |
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Hi- thanks for the info but if I can get a photo of a properly wired harness for a 1969 beetle that would help me immensely
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ogbudjones
Samba Member
Joined: January 17, 2017
Posts: 1
Location: Hawai'i
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Getting lights on but no ignition |
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I very much doubt my recently acquired '69 is wired properly, as I'm having a similar issue. I did, however, find this wiring diagram on the site that's been pretty helpful so far for familiarization. Good luck and please let us know what you discover...
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/wiring/Beetle_1969-71_Clymers.jpg |
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KSKI
Samba Member
Joined: June 29, 2015
Posts: 332
Location: WV
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: Getting lights on but no ignition |
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Hi- yeah thanks for the schematic! I really need either a drawing or photo from someone showing each color wire and which post it connects to
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bigdog1962
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Joined: August 11, 2010
Posts: 1586
Location: Augusta, Georgia
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Getting lights on but no ignition |
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| Starbucket wrote: |
| The wiring diagrams are located at top of home page. then compare colors of wires coming from fuse box to yours. easy. |
You can download the picture from there.
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Oprn wrote: I'm getting to the age that any self propelled woman (no wheel chair or walker) looks HOT!! Oooo! look at that Babe! She made it from the dining room all the way to the TV room without help!! Hubba, hubba!! |
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KSKI
Samba Member
Joined: June 29, 2015
Posts: 332
Location: WV
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: Getting lights on but no ignition |
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Hi- I looked at them but not only were the colors not true but I simply couldn't relate it to this
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ashman40
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Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Getting lights on but no ignition |
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| KSKI wrote: |
Hi- I looked at them but not only were the colors not true but I simply couldn't relate it to this
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The fuse box in the wiring diagram is a logical construct and doesn't represent how the fuse box is physically wired. The wiring diagram fuse box will be numbered left-to-right 1-10 because that is logical. You will be working on the fuse box from the backside so fuse #1 will be on your right.
(This is the late-'69 Beetle with the 4-prong flasher relay. If you have the 7-prong flasher relay you want to use the earlier wiring diagram)
Notice how the black wires all connect to fuses #1 & #2 in the wiring diagram. In your pic they connect to the #1 & #2 fuses on the right side of the pic
Note that in the wiring diagram has a thick black line connecting the bottom of each pair of fuses. This can be seen as the brass bar connecting pairs of fuses along the TOP of your fuse box. This means that while the INPUT wires come into the bottom of the fuse box in the wiring diagram they come into the TOP of your physical fuse box.
This is most clear with the headlight wires. A single white or yellow wire powers the INPUT for two fuses. The output side has two wires, one for each fuse/headlight element.
Clearly, the fuse box in the diagram is just a logical representation of the physical fuse box. You need to take this into account.
With this understanding, you can see that your fuse box is correctly wired... once you swap the headlight OUTPUT wires on fuses #3 & #5 and replace the high beam indicator wire as suggested above.
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AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}
Last edited by ashman40 on Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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