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meredith murray
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2001
Posts: 450
Location: Upstate SC
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 Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:17 am Post subject: Right Turn Signal Flashes other bulbs |
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So close to getting my 64 bug back on the road, only thing holding me back is a electrical issue, I hope someone can help?
Everything works except the right turn signal and it's the rear I'm having issues with. Left Turn signal works perfect, front and back.
Right Front TS works fine but the rear also carries/bleeds over into the running/brake light bulbs on both sides?
I even unhooked the wires at the fuse box for the running lights and the brake lights and it still made the rear left and right running/brake lights blink?
So is this a ground issue? I can move my housing around on the right and get different grounds with different bulb flashes but none where just the turn signal flashes? In the screwed down position I get what's seen in the photo. I have also provided a better ground to the housing with no difference?
This was after a new complete paint job. I have cleaned the connections where the tail light housing slips into the top and around the bottom where the screw goes with no difference. The lights are all good and bright.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
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Keith
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2005
Posts: 3634
Location: Brodheadsville, PA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:09 am Post subject: Re: Right Turn Signal Flashes other bulbs |
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You cleaned to bare metal where the reflector screws into the housing, did you clean to bare metal where the housing bolts to the fender?
_________________
Formerly known in the forums as "OVALTEEN"
"I firmly believe that some villagers from Botswana could probably build a better road than PennDot."- Splitty
"If you do anything to your car someone will hate on you for it. People absolutely love to complain and find fault with others. Don't let it bother you. Just live and have fun."- Lind |
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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34009
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Right Turn Signal Flashes other bulbs |
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| Test it by running a ground wire clipped to a good ground and to the housing/reflector. If that fixes it, you know you have a broken link in the ground path. |
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grandpa pete
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2008
Posts: 6426
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
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meredith murray
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2001
Posts: 450
Location: Upstate SC
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Right Turn Signal Flashes other bulbs |
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| Keith wrote: |
| did you clean to bare metal where the housing bolts to the fender? |
No I have not tried that so I will be doing this shortly. Thanks |
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meredith murray
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2001
Posts: 450
Location: Upstate SC
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:45 am Post subject: Re: Right Turn Signal Flashes other bulbs |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| Test it by running a ground wire clipped to a good ground and to the housing/reflector. If that fixes it, you know you have a broken link in the ground path. |
I did with no luck, same situation where is made the others blink. I'll try again to see if I have different results. |
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meredith murray
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2001
Posts: 450
Location: Upstate SC
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:48 am Post subject: Re: Right Turn Signal Flashes other bulbs |
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| grandpa pete wrote: |
I have read several threads over the years where all that bright new shiny paint has messed up the grounds .  |
I guess it's a common thing as that's what I had read trying to find the answer before posting the question, I could't find the exact same issue but feel it has to be grounding issue also. I did not clean to new paint were the TL housing actually screws to the fender so that's next. |
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11056
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Right Turn Signal Flashes other bulbs |
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Most common.. Grounds (ground reflector to ENGINE bypassing suspect fender via a test jumper)
Second most common. Connections wrong at the rear splices, reflector or reflectors
Third most common.. Wrong bulbs (hence single element in double spot or vice-versa )
Fourth most common.. Terminals or contacts touching each other at the base or reflector.
The problem will depend on ALL the symptoms..
If its a ground back feed.. there will be more
The problems root cause will depend.. .. if the right turn is back feeding into the park.. or the stop circuits.. or both.. and IF all is correctly connected. .
Electricity is 110% lazy.. .. always takes the easy path.
.
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34009
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Right Turn Signal Flashes other bulbs |
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| VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
Most common.. Grounds (ground reflector to ENGINE bypassing suspect fender via a test jumper)
Second most common. Connections wrong at the rear splices, reflector or reflectors
Third most common.. Wrong bulbs (hence single element in double spot or vice-versa )
Fourth most common.. Terminals or contacts touching each other at the base or reflector. |
X2. This list will explain about 95% or more of the cases. Try/check all four first and completely before going further. |
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11056
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: Right Turn Signal Flashes other bulbs |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
Most common.. Grounds (ground reflector to ENGINE bypassing suspect fender via a test jumper)
Second most common. Connections wrong at the rear splices, reflector or reflectors
Third most common.. Wrong bulbs (hence single element in double spot or vice-versa )
Fourth most common.. Terminals or contacts touching each other at the base or reflector. |
X2. This list will explain about 95% or more of the cases. Try/check all four first and completely before going further. |
And/or a combination of 2 or more ... 
.
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited |
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meredith murray
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2001
Posts: 450
Location: Upstate SC
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: Right Turn Signal Flashes other bulbs |
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| VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
Most common.. Grounds (ground reflector to ENGINE bypassing suspect fender via a test jumper)
I had done this before but did it again so I could confirm I went down the list. It had no difference if I ground reflector to engine while reflector is screwed down. When reflector is removed the left brake light still flashes, then when grounded using the engine the right reflector flashes the TS and Brake light, remove the ground and it of course stops. Again no difference when reflector is in place when grounded to another source.
"Second most common. Connections wrong at the rear splices, reflector or reflectors"
You are correct that at one point I realized I had the wrong connections at the splice from the main harness to the TL harness. Corrected that and then this issue was present. I need to search for a picture for the correct connections at the reflector, I do know I have the TS on top, then the RL and BL for the duel bulbs, I have switched those connections around with varying issues, tried so many things forgot what happened when I did that but the right ts still made things flash.
"Third most common.. Wrong bulbs (hence single element in double spot or vice-versa )"
Got that, single on top duel on bottom with the lock tab located correctly.
"Fourth most common.. Terminals or contacts touching each other at the base or reflector."
Unless this is something that happens other than where the terminals plug I thought this might be possible but then when reflector is removed and grounded both lights still flash, not just the TS.
"The problem will depend on ALL the symptoms..
If its a ground back feed.. there will be more
The problems root cause will depend.. .. if the right turn is back feeding into the park.. or the stop circuits.. or both.. and IF all is correctly connected. ."
After confirming the ground is good I feel this must be whats occurring, as I was moving the bug into another garage tonight I see the reflection of the Front Right TS coming on as I applied the brakes. So now it seams as if the brakes make the right TS come on?
Is this a ground feedback?
"Electricity is 110% lazy.. .. always takes the easy path."
I'm usually good at this kind of stuff but that lazy electricity has worked me hard, I tried Many Many things before reaching out as I like to figure things out myself but this one has got me.
Thanks for all the help and any further suggestions on what to do.
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34009
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:09 pm Post subject: Re: Right Turn Signal Flashes other bulbs |
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| meredith murray wrote: |
| at one point I realized I had the wrong connections at the splice from the main harness to the TL harness. Corrected that and then this issue was present. |
So, you had to correct a wiring mistake, and there are splices? Sounds like the work of a careless PO.
Maybe there are more mistakes elsewhere. Maybe the mistake you found was done in an attempt to fix a problem, and instead they (1) didn't fix the root cause, and (2) created another problem. So ensuring the wiring at the lamp assembly is correct may not be enough. I'd check the multi-connector behind the firewall tarboard (or maybe it's behind the left-side tarboard flap?). Then check connectors up front and the fusebox connections.
A handy and oft-recommended approach is to download the wiring diagram from the Technical section, and have kinkos print it poster size and laminate it. Maybe even have it printed on a foam core board.
Check off each wire and connection with a grease pencil or dry-erase marker, so you can be systematic.
When the problem is fixed, erase it and use it as garage wall art. |
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meredith murray
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2001
Posts: 450
Location: Upstate SC
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| Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: Right Turn Signal Flashes other bulbs |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| meredith murray wrote: |
| at one point I realized I had the wrong connections at the splice from the main harness to the TL harness. Corrected that and then this issue was present. |
So, you had to correct a wiring mistake, and there are splices? Sounds like the work of a careless PO.
Maybe there are more mistakes elsewhere. Maybe the mistake you found was done in an attempt to fix a problem, and instead they (1) didn't fix the root cause, and (2) created another problem. So ensuring the wiring at the lamp assembly is correct may not be enough. I'd check the multi-connector behind the firewall tarboard (or maybe it's behind the left-side tarboard flap?). Then check connectors up front and the fusebox connections.
A handy and oft-recommended approach is to download the wiring diagram from the Technical section, and have kinkos print it poster size and laminate it. Maybe even have it printed on a foam core board.
Check off each wire and connection with a grease pencil or dry-erase marker, so you can be systematic.
When the problem is fixed, erase it and use it as garage wall art. |
This was a brand new wiring harness I installed so no hacks at this point, when I said splice I meant the factory connections at the end of the wiring harness running to the rear, the connectors under the fire wall for the TL housings. I had them wrong but corrected that.
I also have a big blow up of the wiring harness and feel almost certain I have it all connected correctly, just this issue with the turn signal bleeding over, now I see that my brake light is bleeding into my turn signal as well?
Thanks for the help. |
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11056
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:54 am Post subject: Re: Right Turn Signal Flashes other bulbs |
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The stop circuit may be real culprit here.. not the turn..
Still sounds like a lamp ground to me.. or a crossed or touching circuit..
Brakes on, stop lights activated .. (no other lights on)
Do both rear lights illuminate the CORRECT stop element the brighter one..
Walk around.. see what else is on.. We know the RF is.. but.. ??
Stop lights off.
Does the license lamp flash with the right turn?
Stop lights on
Does the license lamp illuminate with the stop lamps ???
In all reality on a 64.. .. neither the Turn and Stop circuits.. should in NO WAY way be related.. ..but ...they are.. the ground via the rear fender..
The ground is the biggest circuit on the car.. and causes the most havoc..
Jumper the LEFT AND RIGHT right rear reflectors to the engine ground..
Its very possible its the left stop ... well.... really the ground.. is the cause.
More tests thoughts ONLY after that.. ^
TRANSAXLE GROUND STRAP TO BODY??? is very important..
Battery to body ground.. as well.
Recheck the connections up front.. too.
Hmmm.. new harness.. how about new fuse block..along with the harness???
Some replacement fuse blocks have the buss bar on the wrong blades..
This alone has caused many to loose some sleep..
How about turn switch new/old, 3 wire or 6 wire or new aftermarket?
.
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited |
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meredith murray
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2001
Posts: 450
Location: Upstate SC
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:38 pm Post subject: Re: Right Turn Signal Flashes other bulbs |
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| VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
Hmmm.. new harness.. how about new fuse block..along with the harness???
Some replacement fuse blocks have the buss bar on the wrong blades..
This alone has caused many to loose some sleep..
How about turn switch new/old, 3 wire or 6 wire or new aftermarket?
. |
Thanks so much for your help and suggestions, didn't get to work on it today and it will probably be this weekend before I can get back to it.
This was a good og vw fuse box that was restored, and then a nos turn signal switch the 3 wire.
I'll try the few things this weekend and will touch base, again Thank You. |
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meredith murray
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2001
Posts: 450
Location: Upstate SC
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 6:19 pm Post subject: Re: Right Turn Signal Flashes other bulbs |
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| VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
The stop circuit may be real culprit here.. not the turn..
Still sounds like a lamp ground to me.. or a crossed or touching circuit..
Brakes on, stop lights activated .. (no other lights on)
Do both rear lights illuminate the CORRECT stop element the brighter one..
Walk around.. see what else is on.. We know the RF is.. but.. ??
Stop lights off.
Does the license lamp flash with the right turn?
Stop lights on
Does the license lamp illuminate with the stop lamps ???
. |
What I found out today:
When brakes are applied both rear elements, the bright ones illuminate along with the right rear and front right turn signal light.
The License lamp did not activate when the brakes are applied.
With no brakes and just the right turn signal activated it flashes the rear brake lights, the front right flashes, it does not make the license light flash.
This is where you might be able to help?
If I apply the brakes and then try the turn signal the left one blinks slowly but the right one will not blink at all but does light the lamps. If I let off the brakes the left ts is fine and the right one blinks the rear brake lights.
I did check both the transmission ground and the battery ground and they are good and tight.
Did the engine ground on both reflector units again with no difference than when in the housing.
Thanks for any suggestions on what to try next, I have made sure all grounds have clean metal and are tight? |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34009
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:26 pm Post subject: Re: Right Turn Signal Flashes other bulbs |
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| meredith murray wrote: |
When brakes are applied both rear elements, the bright ones illuminate along with the right rear and front right turn signal light.
With no brakes and just the right turn signal activated it flashes the rear brake lights, the front right flashes, it does not make the license light flash.
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These are defining and similar symptoms. You have an interconnect between the right side turn circuit and the brake circuit.
Two reasons are possible. Your junction connectors at the rear (I think left side behind the tarboard) are miswired, or you still have a poor ground at the right rear housing/reflector assembly.
Recheck both of these carefully. |
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11056
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:01 am Post subject: Re: Right Turn Signal Flashes other bulbs |
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^ Yep.. Start isolation the rear from the front and side from side.
It's a short among the brake and stop circuits some where..
Symptoms indicate right turn to stop is shorted to each other.
IMO work from the back towards the front.
Remove the right rear turn bulb see what/if symptoms disappear..
If it changes and eliminates the Right FRONT stop light . the problem is there.
Inspecting the rear reflectors carefully.
I've seen way too many as you place the bulb in twists the blades just enough to touch each other.. or when the terminal is slid on or when the reflector is placed into the housing it creates a short.
Swap rear reflectors side to side or different ones
Check the connector splices carefully.
Still a chance its a ground albeit a slimmer chance by the symptoms.
Grounds play the most havoc with properly connected properly
.
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited |
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meredith murray
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2001
Posts: 450
Location: Upstate SC
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| Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: Right Turn Signal Flashes other bulbs |
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Volkswagnut,
Wanted to say thank you for your time and help, sadly none of the things I tried today isolated the issue, I can't think clear about it anymore so have asked a friend to see if he can help? I so wanted to get this myself, and then with the help of The Samba, but I have to realize my limitations.
The sad thing is this is probably something so simple I'm just making to much of it, but can't see it.
I will update when we have it figured out.
Thanks again everyone. |
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meredith murray
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2001
Posts: 450
Location: Upstate SC
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| Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: Right Turn Signal Flashes other bulbs |
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Finally Figured it out, when I put in the spade connector for the right rear I thought I had used a split spade connector, finally realized it was one that is tied together, so it was sending that signal back out to the brakes, then the brakes back to the turn signals. So Simple and I over looked it several times.
Thanks again for everyone's input.
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