Syncro transmission rebuild every 10-20k miles

[MsTaboo]

The problems you've been having with your rebuilds is exactly why I've hesitated getting mine rebuilt.
I have a stock, unopened, transmission with 170k on it and although I really want to get it rebuilt to avoid blowing a 3/4 slider (or something else), the thought that I might make matters worse is a nightmare. Hate to think any builder would cut corners when they charge so much.
I have stockpiled all new aluminum bell housing, main case, and gear carriers for the day but I guess I'm waiting for good news from the transmission gods!

Still hoping for someone to build that all new Syncro transmission for under $6000
_________________
Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec

The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
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[Sodo]

I suspect if you sent your trans off with a new Aluminum housing and it came back with an '85 you wouldn't sit on your hands. What other components inside your un-opened 170k trans are in very nice condition, NLA and worth a lot on the open market? You are wise to be certain of your choices. Maybe open it first and have a look before sending it off. And maybe get that 170k '90 case back too, I coulda had one (or is yours 170km?).

While it comes down to a genuine personal connection with your rebuilder, I honestly thought I had one. At my 2009 rebuild (which had lasted from 136k to 147k miles in 3 years) I bought a Peloquin at full pop and GAVE them my OEM locking diff too. OUTRIGHT, thats probably $1000 of 'profit' alone. I was charged the rebuild cost ($1100?) less a $250 discount = $850. And it died again 18,000 miles later.

Then to discover this stuff years later after going over it with a fine-toothed comb, I'm trying to keep my cool while wondering how a regular guy (or girl) would have reacted. Best of luck to you and while I'm sorry to subject you to my sordid affair but you are perhaps wiser. I hope at lease some members appreciate it.

All of the perspectives (especially pro perspectives) provided have HOPEFULLY made samba members wiser, and I suppose some are just lighting candles and thinking good thoughts (glad it wasn't them) and some are merely entertained. And others are s***ting bricks.

$yncros have become big money and a few places are set up to service those who simply have the cash to get in on the $yncro thing. The rest of us who just want the Van can get taken for a ride.

When it was time for me to ship off my trans I had a major anxiety, I built the crate, but just could NOT close it up! Had to get more info on the various rebuilders, and I didn't have a good concept whether they were going to treat me like a friend or like a wallet. A $yncro wallet. I delayed weeks, finally found a guy who said the most foolish thing I can imagine.

He said "I'll even go over it with you when we see whats inside". I did not ASK this of him, he offerred it. I can't imagine this option is available for many, but it was sure what I needed.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[MsTaboo]

[Sodo]

This,,,, from July 6. I thought MsTaboo was referring to the quality of Peloquin differentials. It's Quaife, I think that has a reputation for lesser quality. I discounted this post entirely at the time, now it seems prescient.

[Sodo]

NOW what's happening?

For those who don't wanna read 12 pages and some forum scuffling:

"Rebuilder A" rebuilt my trans 4 times in 70,000 miles since 2004. Their warranty was 3 years and ?? miles (I think now its 2 years?) and the rebuild (sort of) lasted the years but not the miles. Also, I was in denial back then, like everyone else. I'm sure the trans was making noise within the "x years warranty" ,,,,,but the noises increase incrementally; if you're not a transaxle expert it kinda catches you by surprise.

And I wasn't paying attention either - why would I? I had 100,000 free new miles ahead on this rebuild by the best of the best. Plus the general forum wisdom is the magnet catches and holds ALL THE METAL PARTICLES. It doesn't. The only conclusive magnet is one that has lots of clear space between metal particles. It's like a wastebasket, if it's 1/4-full you can assume that's all the trash. But if it's "full" it tells you that you don't know how much trash is still there all over the floor. Vanagon transaxles are often run for thousands of miles in a horrible, abrasive metal soup, destroying the other parts too.

So I kept having to buy full-pop rebuilds but "A" was kind enough to give $200 - $250 discounts. In 2015 (lasted 9,000 miles) I took it to "Rebuilder B". "B" took it apart with me watching, and we found that "A" had put used parts in critical locations, and we found stuff worn much worse than if rebuilt 9,000 miles ago. A used pinion bearing, for example, the most critical bearing in the trans, was ground down a little on a beltsander and put into my trans to save $100 (saves for them not me). It failed quickly. This is how they treat a guy who paid them (almost) full pop 3 times! Also my van was a 1990 but the case I have is 1985 and "A" was the only company who rebuilt it. So I lost my '90 case somewhere along the line at "A's" shop. Case exchange was not listed in any invoice.

If anyone read this whole thread (too much reading I'm sure) you may notice some forceful Samba members driving the discussion. I understand forum dynamics and discussing real people's businesses with no culpability on the member's part is a problem. It's a slippery slope, extremely unfair, where members can walk away unscathed but the business has mouths to feed. But in any case the result of NOT discussing it there's a long period of time on TheSamba where the members were not getting the information they needed, and the business was not getting the feedback it needed either. Members don't "walk away" in that regard, but they sometimes have to pay thru the nose. I sure did.

I have since found problems with B's methods too. For example he cannot see defects, very important defects. And he cannot see if the trans is clean (before reassembly). Which is neither here nor there because he doesn't clean it anyway. If your trans is full of microscopic metal fines this is CRUCIAL to the health of your new bearings. B does a lot of steps by "feel", doesn't measure endplays, etc. I suppose with skill some of these steps can be skipped. I've since learned that endplays CORRECT are crucial to having the (small) transaxle survive a big motor. Perhaps it's OK to skip them for a stock motor? IDK.

And other things. B does not use any "heat" in assembling or dissembling the trans, which poses a risk of damaging parts upon dissembly or damaging upon reassembly of your new trans. He broke one of my parts on dissembly, and told me "that's just how it goes sometimes". Tom L said he's NEVER broken that part, it practically falls off when removed with heat, and furthermore is a critical component to be very careful with (the "Gear Carrier Housing"). There were many more problems all of them inexcusable. Carrier bearings not pressed in all the way, 1/16" off the land (on each side!). The Weddle mainshaft ballbearing hold-down installed with NO stop-bolt! And Of course, finding thick deposits of metal-filled sludge leftover from "A's 9,000-mile rebuild" that B should have cleaned out.

"B" uses air impact tools on the trans case bolts, little M8 bolts into magnesium that strip all the time. It's a huge risk to blast them in - on 30-year old transmission cases. You don't know if some other builder stressed it over the last 30 years, and you just blast it in with an air tool? You need to FEEL HOW it came up to torque. Did it come up hard or soft? Two of mine were stripped, did B do it or did A do it? Who knows?

I really hate to type stuff like this, but I equally hate cringing for you poor bastards out there with a noisy tranny, and have to make a DECISION. Good LUCK. Should transaxle rebuilders should GET ON TheSamba and ask for your business? Mr Gas operates in the daylight, probably a good bet. Tom Lengyel doesn't WANT to rebuild that many transaxles, but agrees to do a few, and only if he thinks he might enjoy it. Of course Tom will do a fantastic job if he takes the job. There are different styles of working out there, to be respected. And there are other builders. Another guy likes Arizona, German Transaxle, Rancho, Western, GoWesty, Porters Precision and likely many others I don't know about. Keep in mind that my assessments may represent just one strange instance or could be just "wrong".

This (5th) time around I was adamant about no 'halfway' parts in my trans.
B billed me for a $1300 Weddle ring&pinion, but opening it up at Tom Lengyel's SyncroShop (Builder "C" and rebuild #6) we found a $600 R&P from China. I don't know if the Weddle is actually better than the China R&P but the discovery was certainly "illuminating" that I didn't get the parts we discussed. A Weddle certainly looks better under a microscope (comparison photos) but I don't know which will run more miles. I would like to have my $700 back though.

Back when they all had 100,000 miles, lots of YOUR remaining parts were good, but now all your parts are kinda run out, and the low-mile used parts are long gone. Engines are bigger now. Why would there be any good used parts when every wrecked van has 250,000 miles? Only new parts are available now, but are they the quality of OEM VW parts? Need to be VERY wary of used parts, they should have as many or more miles than yours.

I don't think you can rebuild a trans cheaply anymore. That's why I added oil cooling & high-level filtering.

The transaxle business is a difficult subject to discuss on theSamba, ask a few pointed questions and you'll see. And remember there's big engines and driving styles that will have a HUGE effect on longevity of a 60 HP transaxle. One guy spins his tiny bearings at 6,000 RPM, 2,000 higher than the WBX. Another guy thinks he's being nice to it because never revs his 240HP motor, but he's actually lugging it, pounding on the tiny trans with a huge sledgehammer. And so it goes, transaxle blues.

You might be wondering how rebuild #6 is doing? Not good. I ran it in May 2016 and 300 miles later yanked it back out, because I was finding steel particles in the filter. Also, the 1985 case that I so carefully plumbed for oiling had a crack near the differential carrier screwthreads and is total scrap now. The source of the steel was, the decoupler shift fork fell off. The decoupler coupling then rubbed on the low gear bearing, filling my new #6 rebuild with steel particles in its first 300 miles. All my new bearings are pock-marked. So it's apart again. The decoupler that fell apart was a brand new AA decoupler. If I could do it again I'd buy the VanCafe unit. I've seen inside it, it's much higher build quality.

I'm currently running a spare (stock) trans with an oil cooling /filtering system plumbed into the fill & drain. I'm not spinning it fast, and I'm not lugging it. I'm filtering the oil like a madman all wacked out on OCD.

We need a bigger trans - with a granny. Or better rebuild parts. And did I say with granny?
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[Sodo]

Man I hate this, I feel sick already. You guys need to know where to send your trans. And customers need to accept that the shop is taking a chance by warrantying YOUR old parts. I'd like to see others discussing this and if not - I said my part - I should stay out of it.

REMEMBER that lots of folks have stickershock, will push the rebuilder to save them money, but in the end, when the trans doesn't last - it's the rebuilders fault. Not the customer who told him to save money THEN sped off with 2x the Horsepower that the van came with. (or 3x the Horsepower that the trans was designed for back in the '70s.) You have a small trans and a big engine, you are partly to blame.

This is a VERY REAL part of rebuilding transmissions.

Nobody has a crystal ball. A Ring& Pinion that has run 250,000 miles cannot pretend it's new just because it has new bearings. The customer asks "is it good?" Rebuilder answers "I can't see any problems, I'd run it". And so it goes even in the best of shops. That's a gamble that the customer SHOULD accept, -OR- buy a new R&P.

If rebuilders agreed to every warranty - that's all they'd ever be doing, and they'd get screwed. But they shouldn't be giving some poor customer used parts when they've already paid 3 times then charge them a 4th time AGAIN (for used junk parts).

Note that if the customers don't share the blame, the conversion engines would just keep "getting bigger and bigger". A very real problem for ALL rebuilders, even the BEST.

This issue is tough on both sides. Without these big conversion engines, enthusiasm for Vanagons would die back some. Consequently the rebuilders have to accept some risk for increase in HP. But it's not ALL on their shoulders. The only thing on their shoulders should be "good work".
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[xoo00oox]

CRIPES! Another one gone?!! Sorry to hear this Sodo. I drive my all stock Syncro Westy very lightly, shift slowly, don't over lug, don't over rev. My Syncro with the Quattro trans I drive hard with about 200 hp and enjoy every minute of it, lug it or rev it 7k.
Thanks for sharing all your very detailed experiences here, Hopefully the next rebuild will be the one to last.

[Pcforno]

So sorry to hear this Sodo. Hopefully gears will be to the rescue with a new transaxle for us soon...

[Stephan Schmidt]

Convert it to 2wd and never have a problem again???

Jokes aside though, the syncro tax is REAL and i'm sorry to hear you've had all this trouble.

[davevickery]

I have a AA Decoupler. I'd like to hear details of your failure and comparison to the Van-Cafe unit. Wouldn't a VC unit actually be a GW unit?

I thought when I bought it, the general consensus was that AAs was the best aside from a German unit from Syncro Services.

[MsTaboo]

Sodo-so sorry to hear it's happening again.
And we are back to this:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=665489

I also have heard that the AA decoupler was the preferred design here in North America. I put an AA decoupler in my 16" Joker and was sad when I sold it, wishing I had swapped it out for the Van-Cafe one(Tom Lengyel's?) that's in my Syncro Westy so I would have the better one in the van I'm keeping.
Now I'm wondering if I'm better off having left it alone. (Note, I have over 50k on the V-C decoupler with no problems)
_________________
Currently:
'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec

The information age has morphed into the age of disinformation and willful ignorance. Agnotology!
Help the fight against Truth Decay.
Defend democracy, support Ukraine.

[Sodo]

MsTab, "it happened" back in June 2016, 300 miles after I got my high-zoot pressure-oiled tranny all bolted in. It's all torn apart currently. I located a hoarded spare trans and quickly bought it and have been driving that trans all over, squirting oil at the 4th gear mesh thru the filler hole.

=========

Be happy with the VanCafe decoupler, it's a FINE unit, I want one. But I have NEVER HEARD of another AA decoupler coming apart However, theSamba is ALMOST my only source of Vanagon info. I suspect this was a rare occurrence.

The AA shift fork is a piece of lasercut flat stock that has about 1/4" of engagement, and visible "wobble" on its shaft. I have a video of this but can't post videos. The shift fork wobbles up and down about 1/8". I suspect due to the wobble, it walked it's e-clip off.

Tom Lengyel's (VanCafe) have a CNC machined shift fork with about 3/4" of engagement on the shaft, there cannot be any wobble, period. The shaft is centerless ground - it's a precision unit. And the e-clip is twice as thick as the AA e-clip.

When I called VanCafe the salesman said it had a "plastic bearing", so I rejected it in favor of the "needled" AA. The VanCafe salesman didn't tell me that all Honda cars use these 'plastic' bearings in their transmissions where power is transferred. Where Vanagons have ball & needle bearings on the shafts, the Hondas use these 'plastic' bearings and they go the distance. It's been proven for many years. 20 years? 30 years, no question they perform. He just said "plastic", and I was thinking of something cut out of a milk jug. I never thought it might be a modern, engineered plastic transmission bearing. Dang.

The bearing (needle bearing is visible in this AA coupler) operates in an environment of "Zero" power, its only purpose is to align one end of the output shaft, so any bearing will survive, even no bearing at all. Which has been proven by GoWesty's decoupler, they've has no bearing at all, for many years. This notion that this plastic bearing could be inadequate for a zero power environment, is nonsensical.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[MR GAS]

WOW! this is crazy. another problem? I thought you had all the issues addressed. Ive been following the SODO Adventure. I cant believe with all the research and effort you have in to this and still have problems. I wish you luck in your next rebuild. ive never seen the fork come off any other decoupler! they are loose like you describe but vacuum operated shouldn't tear it apart.
I was asked the other day by Green Syncro how I handle all the syncro warranty issues we see here on thesamba. From all that is posted people think this is always a problem. Since I started my Own trans business after leaving my job in AZ 3 years ago. Sodo has had more 2x more comebacks/ Failures than I have entirely in 3-4 years. Knock on Wood! I am not trying to get more work from this, I have plenty. Knock on Wood! I would like to see every one enjoy their Vans like I Do.
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Transaxles Rebuilt, Repaired and Re Geared 25 years. www.MRGASRebuilds.com

[Birdcage]

In regard to the case being swapped out, I'd venture to say unless yours has been painted before it was shipped out its not yours. I know a couple folks last year that needed a trans a.s.a.p while traveling in the PNW and were able to get them really really quick. Now sure maybe they have a stock of rebuilt shop owned tranny's sitting on the shelf, but the words said on one of these occasions was I'm just finishing one up and can have it ready for pickup tomorrow. Which leads me to believe it was someone else's. That or maybe it was a shop owned unit that was being rebuilt. But I see this highly unlikely, given the moral integrity I've experienced with said shop
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@syncrostyle
@optoverland

[candyman]

Ugh. Sodo this makes me sick to my wallet. So sorry to hear this. However, like syncrojael, thank you for being 100% transparent with all your recent failures for the rest of us to learn from. So many do not write about their "what went wrongs" out of fear of being flamed by cantankerous, know it all members, so the rest of us fall into those same traps.
The real sad part of this story is now Mrgas' lead time probably just went from 2 weeks to 2 months . Glad i got mine done from him 1.5 year ago (still strong).
FWIW I went with the VC decoupler as I have used them in every syncro Ive owned and have never witnessed a problem with them. If a problem did occur 10 out of 10 times it was a vacuum line issue that was easily resolved.
The thread that highly pushed the AA decoupler was also strongarmed by a banned member who tried fiercely to bully you early in this thread. I never put much stock in what that member had to say as I found too much wrong information being touted by him.

[Sodo]

[Syncro Jael]

Sodo, Yikes not again!

I feel your pain as only another Syncro owner that has to keep installing transaxles could know. I do understand that all the used parts we keep putting back in these is a crap shoot. I have also heard that the new parts are not as good of quality as the OEM German parts, so what is a guy to do???

I am also sorry your other builder did not have the experience to perform the rebuild correctly. All I can do is cross my fingers (along with lots of others) that the builder that is doing my work has the experience, tools, and cares about the task at hand. I do believe Greg (Mr. Gas) has these qualities. He too is concerned about the quality of parts that he gets and we also re-use many parts that looks to be in good condition. Yes, his wait to build time is double what it was a year ago, and he has trouble getting parts too.

I do not blame the builder if he is honest and straight up with customers. They cannot control all the variables that are a part of a "RE-BUILD", and we have to remember that these are not new transaxles with OEM spec parts anymore. Used is used. Good used is good used but not new. We abuse them with big tires, big motors, and a lead foot trying to keep up with traffic.

I have been on the path to help and save my transaxles now. I have reduced the weight that everyone all believed to be my demise. I drive slower, shift slower, do not rev as high, do not lug the engine, change the oil often, filter and cool the oil, listen for noises, and just pay more attention to everything more. I have even purchased 16" rims and am going with smaller tires to get back closer to the stock revolutions per mile, and lose some of the torque loading on the drivetrain.

Doing all of this stuff makes my van not look like my van anymore! But it is unbearable to rebuild the transaxle every year or two. Especially now that parts are more expensive and almost impossible to acquire.

I feel everyone's pain when I hear about transaxle noises, and failures.

I just stepped out and looked at the odometer in the van. This rebuild now has 6,753 miles since installed. I keep an eye on the oil fiters and listen, listen, and listen for anything coming from the tranny. It kinda takes the fun out of just taking the van out for a drive sometimes...

So sorry again Sodo.

EDIT: by the way, I am running an AA decoupler also. A few years ago it was touted as one of the better ones to purchase. I guess time will tell.
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1987 Syncro Westfalia Hightop - NAHT
Subaru EJ25 Forged Frankenmotor, Triple Knob.
Jael = (Mountain Goat)

[Terry Kay]

It is totally possible for the throw out bearing to be making this wow noise.

Stick your ear to the bell housing area.
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T.K.

[photogdave]

These trans threads have been real eye-closers!
From now on I vow to drive with my ears plugged, my eyes narrowed and my brain turned off. For the sake of my own sanity I will no longer read any thread with word "syncro" in it.
If I ever need to replace my Syncro I will not modify the new one in ANY way!


...Sorry for your troubles guys. I hope it all works out for you in the end-play.
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89 Syncro GL Westfalia 2.1 WBX/WBXaustSS

My Westy Movies:
photogdave On Vimeo
photogdave On YouTube

Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

[Howesight]

Hey Dave:

With a stock engine, no need to worry. I bought my Syncro from the original owner who was a careful owner who had the vehicle well maintained. When Darryl rebuilt the factory original transaxle at 225,000 miles, he saw very little wear. I did this rebuild as preventive maintenance and to add overdrive, 3rd and 4th gears and oiling plates. That's when I added the SVX engine.

I now have 262,000 miles on this rig and so far, so good, with this rebuild. Fingers crossed.
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'86 Syncro Westy SVX