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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51057 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Yes, what he said^, tighter on the AFM spring and close up the bypass to richen the idle, both require an AFR meter to do properly and avoid melted pistons. Go too far and the Hc's will spike as well.
And the long slow burn of the racing fuel may be hindering the readings as well, it's likely exhausting some before it's had a chance to fully combust making for a higher Co reading. Retarding the timing may help, but I suspect the AFM is to blame. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12688 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Hi there,
I'm driving through Los Angeles next Wednesday or Thursday with my AFR meter if you'd like to spend a bit sniffing your tailpipe at idle and at 2,500 RPM.
Shoot me a pm if you're interested,
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51057 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:00 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Now that's an offer you can't refuse, jump on it! _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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rockerarm Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009 Posts: 3552 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:13 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Hi.
One item that should be done is to obtain exhaust sample measurements before the cat and after the cat, to see how efficient the cat is performing.
It is possible to lean the car out a bit and throw the HC up over the threshold.
Are you able to keep going back to the same smog shop for the free retests?
Would you consider that "secret sauce" recipe? 1/2gl of methanol and 2oz of acetone. Mentioned earlier.
Bill. |
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KKiley Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2016 Posts: 662 Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:35 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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The good news is the shop I am going to is willing to put the sniffer in and give me a free check of where we stand. I did a quick adjustment of the idle adjustment while I was there and it brought the readings at idle into specs.
We tried adjusting the screw in the AFM while I was there (not the settings under the cover) , leaned it out a little bit, still didn't fix it.
AsiaB3, I will shoot you a PM and take you up on your offer.
Kevin _________________ 1978 Super Beetle convertible
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rockerarm Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009 Posts: 3552 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:48 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Hi. Pull that old O2 sensor out and have someone fab up something that the smog shop can see what is happening before the cat.
Personally, I don't know how much a drop is expected with a new cat, an old cat, or something in between. |
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KKiley Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2016 Posts: 662 Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Well, I have been trying to apply some logic here and figure out why it would all of a sudden go rich. I verified no vacuum leaks and nothing else has changed. But I noticed that when I was running the engine and sitting behind it, I could see rich smoke fumes coming from the exhaust.
I just did a quick check for the fuel pressure regulator. Plugging and unplugging it make no difference in the way it runs. It should be leaner when hooked up.
I will go rent a fuel pressure testing kit and verify, but I think that is the cause of the richness. Makes the most sense, as the CO was perfect before.
Kevin _________________ 1978 Super Beetle convertible
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Tom Butler Samba Member
Joined: October 03, 2016 Posts: 287 Location: Bay Area, California
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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Dwayne1m wrote: |
Does California have a clause that antiques don't need to be smog tested? I'm glad I don't have to deal with this. |
75 and older. maybe like 5 years and we wont have to test 78's
This is the exact reason I bought a 71 |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26299 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Definitely check that... but don't forgot what myself and others said about altering the Air Flow Meter's internal adjustment, it can affect all RPMs. _________________ Andy T.
IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
I do not know how to fix this. All I can say is it all works fine for me with what I use, Firefox. |
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rockerarm Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009 Posts: 3552 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:58 am Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Morning Kevin.
Did you ever add any resistors to the TS2?
Why not see if a muffler shop or ?? can fab up an adaptor to read/diagnose the emissions before the Cat?
You really need to know what the engine is doing, emissions wise. Measuring after the cat does not diagnose whether you are fighting a "happy balance" with the CO and the HC readings, or you have an older cat that's not working efficiently.
Early on your diagnostics indicated a cylinder with only, as you stated, 70psi cranking compression. Food for thought.
Bill. |
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KKiley Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2016 Posts: 662 Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Gentlemen, I appreciate all the input of fixing this. I have narrowed it down to an issue with the distributor. Here is where I stand with timing. With both vacuum lines plugged, I have it set to about 5* ATDC at idle an about 30* with the mechanical advance.
When I plug the vacuum advance line in on the front of the distributor, the timing immediately advances to 30*.
When I plug in the retard line, nothing changes. The engine doesn't even stutter. Plugging and unplugging ti has not impact.
I took the distributor apart, cleaned it again, made sure the plates are moving freely, and checked the vacuum canister on both sides with a tube and sucking on the line, and confirmed the plates moved both directions.
I am stumped. If I can get the timing in the correct sequence, I am sure I can get this. I just can't figure out what I am missing.
Thanks in advance.
Kevin _________________ 1978 Super Beetle convertible
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sb001 Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011 Posts: 10399 Location: NW Arkansas
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Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:05 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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KKiley wrote: |
Gentlemen, I appreciate all the input of fixing this. I have narrowed it down to an issue with the distributor. Here is where I stand with timing. With both vacuum lines plugged, I have it set to about 5* ATDC at idle an about 30* with the mechanical advance.
When I plug the vacuum advance line in on the front of the distributor, the timing immediately advances to 30*
When I plug in the retard line, nothing changes. The engine doesn't even stutter. Plugging and unplugging ti has not impact.
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You MUST have something backwards here.
Plugging and unplugging vacuum advance at idle should have little to no effect. Plugging and unplugging vacuum retard at idle should affect timing anywhere from 10-12°. Are you sure you are not confusing these two ports?? This would explain why the vacuum canister seems to check out OK- becuase it's actually working properly!
It may also explain the crazy jump in timing from 5° ATDC to 30° (!) when plugging in the vacuum advance port, if you have these backwards, if this is indeed the jump you are getting (I've never in my life heard of that before.)
Make sure you have your vacuum ADVANCE line going from the REAR port on the canister (rear is rear of car) up to the port on the LEFT SIDE of the carb, and the vacuum RETARD line going from the FRONT port on the canister (front is front of car, so this would be the port on the distributor side of the canister) up to the REAR facing port on the carb.
Then, reset timing to 5° ATDC with both hoses connected. This is the way your DVDA is supposed to be timed. Timing it with both hoses disconnected and plugged is the equivalent of setting timing WAAY too retarded, because there is no vacuum retard signal taken into consideration at idle as there should be. When you plug the retard hose back in timing this way, you'll drop down to like 15-17° ATDC at idle!! Frankly I'm surprised your car would even run this way, unless you somehow have compensated for it by resetting idle speed to make up for it, which might expalin your running way too rich.
Try these adjustments and see if they help. Good luck! _________________ I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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KKiley Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2016 Posts: 662 Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:35 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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How stupid am I? Public humiliation of admitting I've had the vacuum backwards on the distributor. Flipped the hoses around and bingo, everything falls into place.
Will run it over tomorrow to the smog testing place and see where we stand.
I am guessing a lot better.
And yes, it does drive great.
Kevin _________________ 1978 Super Beetle convertible
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26299 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:28 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Don't feel bad... feel good that you got it sorted out! _________________ Andy T.
IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
I do not know how to fix this. All I can say is it all works fine for me with what I use, Firefox. |
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rockerarm Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009 Posts: 3552 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:07 am Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Hi. Don't think you have to be dead nuts on with the timing. If you are able to have the pre-test see what it tests out at. You can retard it a bit further if you need to drop the HC's a bit.
Bill. |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31268 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:22 am Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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KKiley wrote: |
How stupid am I? Public humiliation of admitting I've had the vacuum backwards on the distributor. Flipped the hoses around and bingo, everything falls into place.
And yes, it does drive great.
Kevin |
Kevin
1. You are NOT the first person to ever have a "Never Mind" moment.
2. You were man-enough to admit that mix-up, and your post will help others avoid this in the future. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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KKiley Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2016 Posts: 662 Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 9:56 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Well, it's Saturday night and I thought I would provide an update on my car.
1st of all, a huge thank you to AsiaB3, aka Robbie! He was nice enough to take time out of his trip to San Diego to back up into my driveway and unload some tools and dive right in to repairing my car.
He started with the wiring and readings from the computer harness and found an issue with the AFM. With the arm resting, the wiper had 0 continuity. The outside track is worn and the inside track was not touching. He adjusted the inside track to where it is reading.
Once we had that in place, then we could begin the tuning. With a base setting for the AFM set where we had an idle, Robbie hooked his exhaust gas meter up and we began the exploring on the tuning. It was so cool to watch his meter respond to the changes we were making, live. The idle was pretty good from the start, he just tuned it a little better and we were spot on.
What he was looking for was a reading of about 14.5:1 as a fuel mixture. From my smog test, it was rich while running at 2,500 rpm. Sure enough, when we cranked up the rpm, I saw the readings drop to 12:1, which is out of the range we wanted. To make that adjustment, he had to adjust the clockspring and dial in less fuel there. When we stopped, it was in the 14:1 range, so we called it complete.
Then the unexpected happened. While we were testing for vacuum leaks, Robbie saw a spark around the coil was I shut it off. I went to restart the car and it is dead. Turns out the dual relay that I just purchased decided no more at that exact time. We were done at that point, and now I have a new relay and lots of connections to clean before I put it back in.
But in the meantime, I have done this:
I had several issues that I need to address and this was the time to get to them. The transmission is leaking up front, so I need to pull the nose cone and replace those bushings and the shifter blocks. Also, my fan/alternator assembly needed attention, and I think I have a vacuum issue between the intake halves. That is what Robbie picked up on when we were spraying the carb cleaner looking for leaks.
Now I can take my time and clean, route and do a clean install on the drive train. It will be solid front to rear and pass smog. And the whole drive train issue will be put to bed for a while.
Thanks for reading this guys. As bubdaddy said, I am persistent, and will see this thru to the finish.
Kevin _________________ 1978 Super Beetle convertible
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12688 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:28 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Hey Kevin! Sorry I didn't see this reply earlier… I was all ready to post about how your AFM tracks were borderline unusable:
Anything below 1,500 RPM originally wouldn't even register on the AFM wiper.
But it sounds like you have a handle on what's going on. Let us know how it goes!
Robibe _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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KKiley Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2016 Posts: 662 Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Well, we have reached a stopping point on the car. I thought I would go ahead and address the oil leak at the nose of the transmission as well as the rubber transmission mounts while I had it out.
Well, I did that. Twice. And I still cannot get the car to shift into gear. I made sure the hockey stick fork was in the right position, moved freely between the 3 forks. I really didn't think I could screw this one up.
But the shifter will only go into reverse. If I unhook the shifter, the shaft will move in and out. But when assembled, the shifter basically does nothing, other than acting like it is going into reverse, but I can still spin the axles.
It's time to button it all back together and park it for a while. I need a break from it, because pulling and installing this engine/transmission by myself has gotten me to the breaking point. I am nowhere near an hour pulling or installing this engine.
Rant over, lol _________________ 1978 Super Beetle convertible
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EVfun Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012 Posts: 5446 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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KKiley wrote: |
Well, we have reached a stopping point on the car. I thought I would go ahead and address the oil leak at the nose of the transmission as well as the rubber transmission mounts while I had it out.
Well, I did that. Twice. And I still cannot get the car to shift into gear. I made sure the hockey stick fork was in the right position, moved freely between the 3 forks. I really didn't think I could screw this one up.
But the shifter will only go into reverse. If I unhook the shifter, the shaft will move in and out. But when assembled, the shifter basically does nothing, other than acting like it is going into reverse, but I can still spin the axles.
It's time to button it all back together and park it for a while. I need a break from it, because pulling and installing this engine/transmission by myself has gotten me to the breaking point. I am nowhere near an hour pulling or installing this engine.
Rant over, lol |
Can you run the transaxle through the gears without the shift rod hooked up? I often put a shift rod coupler on the end of the transaxle to give me the leverage needed to manually run the box through the gears. It is a little hard to find 2nd gear that way, but reverse and 3-4 are easy. 1-2 is easiest found by feeling for 1st. _________________
Wildthings wrote: |
As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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