Engine Size/Power/Torque Considerations

cwareham · Samba Member Joined: February 23, 2005 Posts: 14

Hi Folks-

Thinking through engine choices for a type 3, and wanted to know what my "bounds" are. My plan would be to go ahead and spend some money on performance to go after something very "torquey" and fun to drive. In a car the size of the type 3's, I'm thinking in the range of 200-225 horsepower. I understand that I should be looking at an aftermarket case for strength, and will come up with some reasonable combination of bore and stroke to get what I want. My questions here are more around:

-At what point do you need to go with a performance transmission?
-Are there any additional cooling considerations given the type 3 cooling tin in an engine that size, putting out that kind of horsepower?
-Are there "fit" concerns when you get into the 2000cc+ range with a type 3?

Any other things that I ought to be thinking about as I plan?

Critter1 · Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 12:26 pm Post subject:

If your looking at that kind of horsepower. I would suggest you think about going with an upright Type-1 style motor. Then your choices are endless (unless you have a squareback). You would have to do some custom metal work to get the engine bay sealed up, but it can be done.

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Justin

cwareham · Samba Member Joined: February 23, 2005 Posts: 14

Thanks Fasty...you know where I can find some more pics of that car? That's roughly the style I'm lookin' for.

Why does going with Type 1 open up my options? What restrictions come up when trying to stay with the stock Type 3 engine bay?

The project will be starting out with the car totally apart, so I'll have options in terms of custom metal, assuming it's not too big a pita. You happen to know where I can find a tech article on the tin work that would be done to do that?

Folks-

I'm still interested in options that don't involve cutting out the engine compartment....just looking for options right now.

All the best,
Chris

karfer67 · Samba Member Joined: January 05, 2005 Posts: 713

hey fasty i agree with your statements about switching to a type 1 style motor but looking at your pic of that notch how does the fan get good clean air flow when the trunk is closed. i would think some sort of venting or a scoop would have to be installed to cool it properly. as for the original poster are you trying to go for that kind of HP with a normally asperated motor or a turbo? with just carbs that is going to have to be a big ol sucker to make that kind of power and really won't be much of a street engine anymore. not saying it can't be done but your going to spend some big dead presidents to get that. i think a turbo would work better say a 1915 with the low bugget set up would make around 180 or so depending on head work. the cool thing about this is you can turn the boost down for street driving on pump gas then crank it up toss in some race gas and beat the u know what out of mustangs at the track.
this brings me to your other Q about trans work and yea you will need a good trans say superdiff, welded 3rd and 4th gears, steel forks maybe close 3 and 4th gears etc... the trick with all this is to figure out what you want to use the car for. obviously if it is a daily driver like my 72 square i am not going to stick a huge motor with a huge cam that will run 12's in the quarter but will only make real power above 4000 rpm. there is a ballance that you have to find so sit down and think long and hard about what you want to do with your vw before spending a bunch of cash.
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aircooled for life (1972 squareback cal look)

Critter1 · Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 1:51 pm Post subject:

With the type-3, you are limited with the carb set up. Short manifold and short air cleaners don't help find the power you are looking for. I just built a 1968cc motor using all the type 3 tin set up. I will assume i might get apx 150-175HP out of it...
The type-3 fan (which bolts directly to the crank) might not be able to handle the rpm's of a 200+ HP motor. It could explode on you. I suppose you could have it welded for strength...
I dont think you will find a tech article on the metal fabrication, because every job is going he different and have its own little monsters.

Hope this helps
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Justin

cwareham · Samba Member Joined: February 23, 2005 Posts: 14

OK cool, so I'm zeroing in here.

I intend to use the car as a weekend driver, stoplight and on-ramp 0-60 in a hurry type stuff with some track time (maybe autocross.) I don't want to put a massive cam in the car, making all the power at 3-4000 RPMs...I'd be shooting primarily for low-end torque, looking for the car to be "a hoot to drive." In short, I'm happy to trade high end power for a lot of low end torqe.

The short manifold/short air filter comment is the kind of limitation information I was looking for....are there any others that spring up from the type 3 configuration?

Fasty- what kind of 0-60 time would you expect with that 150 HP type 3 motor? Also, given your stroke/bore combo, what kind of torque would it produce at say 2500-3500 RPMs? I recognize that the torque is going to be heavily dependent on how much of your displacement you get out of stroke rather than bore, I'm just shooting in the dark in terms of what to expect.

Also, anyone know much a stock Notch weighs?

This forum rocks....you guys have built a hell of a community here!

all the best,
Chris

karfer67 · Samba Member Joined: January 05, 2005 Posts: 713

if you autocross it i would think a smaller engine would work better and last longer. you deff can't cam a autocross engine liek a drag engine. drag cams are very tall and long so they only make real power very high in a power band. autocross requiers low rpm use as well so a FK89 is out of the question. you will deff need a stornger trans as a stock 1600 can break a trans lol.
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aircooled for life (1972 squareback cal look)

cwareham · Samba Member Joined: February 23, 2005 Posts: 14

Excuse my ignorance...is an FK89 a stock trans?

c

karfer67 · Samba Member Joined: January 05, 2005 Posts: 713

lol sorry i did not explain that is an engle cam shaft that is used in big motors intended for dragracing. big power and there are some guys that use them on the street. but not really intended for this.
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aircooled for life (1972 squareback cal look)

cwareham · Samba Member Joined: February 23, 2005 Posts: 14

Aha! Another dark corner lit for me!

Mr. Bubblehead · Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:06 pm Post subject:

blankmange · Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:21 pm Post subject:

Mr. Bubblehead · Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:37 pm Post subject:

karfer67 · Samba Member Joined: January 05, 2005 Posts: 713

actually yea a type 4 would be a good choice because there are a ton of guys out there autocrossing 914's which use that engine so there are specific parts that are ment for this sort of duity. not to say that there are not any type 1 engines out there doing the same. and yea sure you can make good power with short manifolds. tall ones just tend to flow better at higher rpms. however i would think that a shorter manifold would have slightly better throtle responce being that the fuel and air travels a shorter distance to get to the cylinder.
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aircooled for life (1972 squareback cal look)

Russ Wolfe · Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 4:45 pm Post subject:

73notch · Samba Member Joined: September 21, 2003 Posts: 667

you dont need to convert to upright cooling, thats taking a step backwards, you are going to have to engineer a way to get air into the sealed trunk.

200-225 hp is pushing it, you are going to need a very well built tranny, and a turbo. a 2276na or a 2332na might fill your need for hp.

i would go for a turbo efi engine if i wanted to go that route. plan on spending around 6k plus though for the set up.

good luck Very Happy

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SubyNotch.com is back up!

karfer67 · Samba Member Joined: January 05, 2005 Posts: 713

whoa russ that is cool. i am not saying it is impossible. maybe i am thinking more from bugs where the trans seems not to be as beefy. i was tempted to trying a burnout with mine the other day but my luck the trans will go SNAP then my gf will kill me lol Rolling Eyes

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aircooled for life (1972 squareback cal look)

Russ Wolfe · Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:27 pm Post subject:

With an IRS, you could go SNAP with a CV joint.
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karfer67 · Samba Member Joined: January 05, 2005 Posts: 713

or that lol Embarassed

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aircooled for life (1972 squareback cal look)

cwareham · Samba Member Joined: February 23, 2005 Posts: 14

Thanks guys...a few more questions:

73notch- what would I get in terms of hp/tqe by going with a 2276 or a 2332 normally aspirated with a good set of heads?

Also, what does the "na" stand for at the end of the cc numbers (2276na?)

Working backward (so I can look for parts) what is the bore and stroke on each of the 2276 and 2332?

Thanks,
Chris


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