Type 3 newbie, advice? (questions that aren't in the faq)

[TommyBoyGomes]

Hey all,

Looking to buy a squareback this summer but have a few practical questions. I plan to do alot of my own engine and cosmetic work on it no matter what condition it is in, but before I make any plans can you answer me a few?

I'm looking to buy a pre-1970 square, not too picky on what year before, but the later the better. If it's not 12v, I'll convert it.

ENGINE Questions:

1. I've read that the stock engine is a 1498 cc engine that gets roughly 65 hp. What gas mileage should I expect from this as stock?

2. I will rebuild the engine to maximize torque, because it's a rear-mounted engine, it has the luxury of traction and torque would matter much more than hp. Have you found this to be true as well? Is obtaining 100hp with 200ft-lb torque on one of these engines possible?

3. If so, would I be able to maintain 20+ mpg?

4. What is the weight of a squareback unladen?


Steering and Handling:

1. Is there a significant amount of understeer because of all the weight being in the rear of the car?

2. Is making a squareback handle pretty well expensive and difficult or is it already pretty decent? I'm not going to be racing it, but I know how those 60's cars usually handle...

3. Is power steering an option on squarebacks? If not, is aftermarket power-steering even possible with the rear-mount engine?


Cosmetic:

1. Does anyone have a link to goo two-tone paint schemes for squarebacks?

2. I've seen a few of these bumpers used on the early variant squares. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=2950 . What years and on what models were they offered stock? If not, are they difficult to find?


Thanks a ton everyone, any links with examples would be appreciated. Any other tech or buying tips would be appreciated.

[localboy]

[quote="TommyBoyGomes"]
3. Is power steering an option on squarebacks? If not, is aftermarket power-steering even possible with the rear-mount engine?

Don't need it. Read the recent thread. The cars are so light, it's not worth the hastle/expense.

Cosmetic:

1. Does anyone have a link to goo two-tone paint schemes for squarebacks?

Check the archives here. Basically the entire roof is painted either black or pearl white.

2. I've seen a few of these bumpers used on the early variant squares. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=2950 . What years and on what models were they offered stock? If not, are they difficult to find?

The bumper is an early stock one with over-rider kit. OG ones are damn near impossible to find. But I believe ISP West sells a repo...contact Anthony aka pimpride here on the threads.

Good luck. Buy a Bentley...their worth it.
_________________
One man's "patina" is another man's cancer...

Black '65 Resto-Custom S Notch 2110 cc powered
original paint Pearl White '66 Westy SO-42
Allstate single-wheel trailer project

[speed holes]

Engine:
1. Gas mileage depends on how well your engine is tuned, how lead-footed you are, where you drive, etc. On a stock engine you should be able to get upper 20's easily.

2. Don't know, but anything is possible with enough money.

3. See #2

4. Unladen weight of a 1967 squareback is 2,028lbs.

Steering and Handling:
1. There is some understeer, but with a proper alignment and good air pressure in your tires you should be fine.

2. Handling is subjective. You could lower it a little to help with center of gravity, anti-sway bars are an option to reduce body roll, stiffer shocks will help you a little, etc etc. IRS will handle slightly better than swingaxle because it keeps more tire on the ground. The one thing that most often gets overlooked when it comes to handling is tires, tires, tires. Unfortunately for us VW owners, not a lot of high performance tires are available unless we switch to a different wheel, and that gets expensive and tricky really quickly. How good of a driver are you?

3. Power steering is not worth the effort. These cars are light, with minimal weight over the front wheels. That massive stock steering wheel will give you plenty of leverage and if you still can't work it, time to do some pushups. Power steering would put a strain on your engine and cooling system, robbing power and adding weight.

Cosmetic:
1. Heres a link to the optional stock two tone scheme: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/paint2tonet3.php. You could try to split the colors at the beltline, and it has been done well in the past, but it always seems to get weird around the rear of the car where the bodyline drops lower around the tailgate. There are more pictures in the gallery.

2. Those bumpers are pricey and hard to find if you want original. Flat-4 in Japan reproduced them a few years ago at around $170 a bumper. Here's a link http://www.mooneyesusa.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=309 for front and rear. That's just the vertical overriders and bars, you'll need good bumper blades. I hear ISP west can help you out with these bumpers too http://www.vwispwest.com/1.html.

Have Fun!

[TommyBoyGomes]

thanks for the help guys... so the name of that bumper is what now? I checked out both sites (isp and mooneyes) and tough to tell because of a lack of pictures, but at least I know where to get roof racks now, so thanks.

Yeah, not too big on that 2-tone scheme, maybe I'll just keep in one colour...

What are your thoughts on rebuilding the 1600 engine with a significant re-bore (0.40 over or so)? Has anyone does this or would you recommend going straight for the aftermarket 1900cc models etc? I haven't ever seen the actual block of one of these engines, is there alot of room inbetween cylinders to work with?

Any more advice from anyonr else is still appreciated, thanks!

[Bobnotch]

[Bugman_Jeff]

In regards to building motors I can offer some suggestions based on my thoughts and somewhat limited experiences.

Decide first what you are really going to do with the car. Is it gonna be a speed toy or a driver that sees alot of stop/go/slow traffic. If it's gonna be a driver I suggest you think conservatively. A big motor idling for a long time in slow traffic will heat up quickly, and you have to plan ahead for that. And of course it will eat more fuel. Besides, you can always go bigger later if you want.

I built a 1641 and loved it in my Baja. You get 87mm (IIRC) cylinders that slip into the stock block bore. Otherwise you have to machine the block for the bigger jugs of course. Don't know how it would react in a full bodied car, but I'd have to guess it would be a pretty good improvement.

To get torque, buy a counterweighted crankshaft. I found that the differnece is incredible. And I think a lighter flywheel would help too.

The most popular engine size for power and durability is the 1776, as far as I have read. I'm thinking of building one for my Fasty. In my experience with my other VW buddies, their 1835's, 1915's (and bigger sizes), don't seem to last too long. But I'm sure that's mostly how you drive and maintain the car, as I know one guy who has over 100k on a 1915 in his Beetle and it's still going VERY strong.

Lots of options here so take your time.
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76 IH Scout 2 (Official Jeep/Hummer recovery vehicle)
81 MB 240D (the DD)

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[TommyBoyGomes]

Thanks Bugman, sorry for such newbie questions but I'm a musclecar convert to VW's (I rebuilt an entire 72 Ford Ranchero, 351-C) and am not familiar with VW's at all...

So a 1776 is an aftermarket engine, correct? As far as I've read that's not a stock VW engine that came in later models or years, right? A 1776 would probably be an ideal size because like you said I will have to see traffic and heat (I live in L.A.).

As far as what I'm planning to do with the car, I plan for it to be my weekend driver. If it proves reliable enough I might upgrade it to a daily driver though. I want the extra engine power half for speed, half for because I need to lug around alot of heavy sound equipment for my work. If I didn't need to haul this stuff around, I'd get a ghia!

Who would you trust most if you were to buy a 1776 block and parts so that I can build it myself? Thanks.

[localboy]

So much has been written/done with VW engines by people way more experienced than I am but do your research. Read, ask lots of questions. Of course you'll get more than your share of opinions. A 1776 (69 X 90.5) is not a stock engine but there are tons of engine size possiblities based on stroke/piston combo. In general I stay away from pistons larger than 90.5 on any street driven car due to wear/heat issues. Leave the big pistons to the racers. Lots of power can be gained by larger stroker cranks and good heads...Good luck.
_________________
One man's "patina" is another man's cancer...

Black '65 Resto-Custom S Notch 2110 cc powered
original paint Pearl White '66 Westy SO-42
Allstate single-wheel trailer project

[seans67]

Then again if you have some cash you could put one of Jake Raby's Type IVs in there.
_________________
Sean

'71 Squareback '71 Porsche 914 ‘80 Camper '87 Syncro Weekender 1.8T '87 Wolfsburg Weekender '97 Toyota Land Cruiser ‘03 Audi A6 Quattro 3.0 ‘04 Audi A4 Avant Quattro 1.8T ‘05 Audi A4 Quattro 3.0
‘06 Porsche Cayenne Turbo S

[TommyBoyGomes]

er... I assume type 4's can bolt right into a Type 3 engine bay then? Is Jake Raby a custom builder or something? I plan on building my own engine, but someone else would have to bore the block and I'd have to get a new crank and pistons no doubt.

Oh yeah, another stupid question... Do Squares have heaters?

[localboy]

[Russ Wolfe]

[localboy]

That's right...them there "Eberspachers" Thanks Russ...
_________________
One man's "patina" is another man's cancer...

Black '65 Resto-Custom S Notch 2110 cc powered
original paint Pearl White '66 Westy SO-42
Allstate single-wheel trailer project

[Jake Raby]

[quote="TommyBoyGomes"]er... I assume type 4's can bolt right into a Type 3 engine bay then? Is Jake Raby a custom builder or something? I plan on building my own engine, quote]


Yes, I am a custom builder, AND I also have a type IV engine specific parts store at www.type4store.com and can set you up with all the parts you need to do this conversion easily- they just need to be assembled.

This conversion is simple as pie and bolts right in to a Type 3, the post 1970 cars are the easiest.
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell"

[TommyBoyGomes]

hey Jake, thanks for the info...

I don't mean to force you to do a sales pitch or anything, but seeming as I'm pretty new to VW engines, what would be the advantages of putting a type 4 engine into a type 3 square? I am most concerned with achieving (in order of priority) reliability, torque/hp, and 20+ mpg. I don't need a drag car or anything, but something that can scoot around with about 300 lbs of extra music equipment in the back. What size type four would you recommend? If you think type 4 would be overkill, what's the biggest type 3 style engine would you bore out to? Thanks a ton.

[Jake Raby]

What you desire is exactly what the TIV is good for. Solid power, reliable power, gobs of torque and excellent reliability.

Remember that the TIV was VWs choice for the bay window bus and they weigh in at over 4500 pounds in Westfalia trim. The Type IV engine wouod push one of these heavy beasts for 100K miles with no sweat.

It will push your square like nothing.
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell"

[blankmange]

[Russ Wolfe]

I have set cocoa fiber floor mats in the rear seat smoldering on the highway.
I have had customers melt shit in their breif case setting on the floor behind the rear seat.
Want bake a potato?? Set it on the floor by the rear seat outlet, at 75mph for about 15 miles. Almost as good as a microwave.
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Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up, you end up with a lot of scum on the top!--Edward Abbey

Gary: OK. Ima poop.

[GermanlookT3]

You were asking questions about getting great handeling out of your square, Well What I did was use these and found that it drove exactly like my friends 1971 Porsche 911.
Bilstein shocks up front
GAZ Shocks in the rear (Coilovers)
White line swaybars front and rear ( Always use a smaller sway bar than the front otherwise you will have a problem with the rear coming loose on high speed cornering)
Lowered 2 notches in the front and 1 in that back
Tires also improve your ride drasticly,
I have 17" x 7.5, on all 4 rims. 205's and 225's

THe Motor,
A stock 2.0 type 4 motor, will give you around 120hp and around 160lbs of tourqe with adding Nice carbs and A custom exhuast and Modified Pistons and cylinders and Nice Heads, You will have a Porsche killer with that set up!

If $$ is in the Line, well I recomend a 1700cc It is a 1600 with a 74mm crank ,40mm carbs, Ported Heads , and Custom exhuast. I believe I have around 105hp with 125lbs of tourque , It cruses on the open highway at 100 no problem and It redlines at about 6500.
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79 baywindow , 18" rims TypeIV approx 115hp 115tq.

"Some people bring happiness wherever they go,
Some people bring happiness whenever they go"

[blankmange]