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kevm
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2004
Posts: 263
Location: UK
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 Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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Seats are looking great Rod btw, I would like to have a closer look at some point, as I mentioned at Sweetcorn I am interested in seeing if there is any reinforcement in the area the spikes go through the material under the seat.
Many thanks for the material too, I am glad I have it for when the time comes. Target is HO 2017  |
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rod_vw
Samba Member
Joined: December 20, 2006
Posts: 416
Location: Shropshire, UK
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| kevm wrote: |
| Blauchen L331 wrote: |
| rod_vw wrote: |
I truthfully do not know.
The Wolfsburg birth certificate says it was made on 27th November 1946, left the factory for 'Hanover' on the 5th February 1947 and that it was black. The opinion of others is that it was a civilian model due to the colour but that is all I know of its early history. |
Ahh yes, sounds like it, that Nitro-Lack Black with Dark Salmon Red and Black wheels and the nipple VW hubcaps, will you paint it like the original, Nitro-Lack is hard to find and only a handful of restorers still spray it (Nitrocellulose Lacquer) but I'm sure high end guys who do like Aston Martin or Bentley will know where to find the lacquer.
Sprays on like a semi-matt look, but when you polish it out, it's like looking into a mirror.....just beautiful. 
Tom |
I assume my 47 was also a civilian car because the birth certificate states it was delivered to Schultz in Essen, one of the first dealers. It was also black.
Tom - do you have any evidence that a 46 or 47 would have had two tone red and black wheels. I thought that was a 48 on thing ? |
Thanks for asking that question Kev, I wonder as well. Any confirmation of that would be very useful.
_________________
Rod,
Please visit http://www.historicvws.org.uk
https://www.facebook.com/historicvwclub/
1946 Beetle (Back on the road after over 50 years! Last major outing - Hessisch Oldendorf 2022)
2016 T6 Selfbuild Camper and a LWB MAN TGE in build. |
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RichOakley
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2004
Posts: 1108
Location: Midlands, UK
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| rod_vw wrote: |
| kevm wrote: |
| Blauchen L331 wrote: |
| rod_vw wrote: |
I truthfully do not know.
The Wolfsburg birth certificate says it was made on 27th November 1946, left the factory for 'Hanover' on the 5th February 1947 and that it was black. The opinion of others is that it was a civilian model due to the colour but that is all I know of its early history. |
Ahh yes, sounds like it, that Nitro-Lack Black with Dark Salmon Red and Black wheels and the nipple VW hubcaps, will you paint it like the original, Nitro-Lack is hard to find and only a handful of restorers still spray it (Nitrocellulose Lacquer) but I'm sure high end guys who do like Aston Martin or Bentley will know where to find the lacquer.
Sprays on like a semi-matt look, but when you polish it out, it's like looking into a mirror.....just beautiful.
Tom |
I assume my 47 was also a civilian car because the birth certificate states it was delivered to Schultz in Essen, one of the first dealers. It was also black.
Tom - do you have any evidence that a 46 or 47 would have had two tone red and black wheels. I thought that was a 48 on thing ? |
Thanks for asking that question Kev, I wonder as well. Any confirmation of that would be very useful. |
Debatable about the two-toning of the wheels. I have a pic of a black 46 civilian car with different coloured wheels (black and white photo).
Civilian cars (always black ones) were available from mid July '46 when Schultz in Essen received it's first cars. By October '46, 28 dealers had been appointed throughout Germany.
I'm also pretty sure that Rod's car (originally black paint) would have been a civilian model.
By the way Rod- thanks for the email about the seats- looking good! |
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beetlekey
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2004
Posts: 633
Location: MINDEN
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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You have to fill the space between up and lower part with padding and there must be two knops in the seat. If you can´t make them send me a sample of the fabric. Oh, also 4 x knops on the rearseat.
Marcus
_________________
Hebmüller 581
1953 oval Typ 11G metalblue
1966 1300
If you are searching for vintage keys, look here:
https://www.facebook.com/WagenmanufakturHO |
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rod_vw
Samba Member
Joined: December 20, 2006
Posts: 416
Location: Shropshire, UK
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| Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:46 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the comments Marcus both the upholsterer and myself had missed the fact that there should be 'knops' (we would call them buttons) in the seats but the old fabric tells us where they were. Please could you tell me the dimensions and details of them so that my upholsterer can make them up, I hope!
Looking at the 1945 and 1946 parts books they show three buttons in the rear seat base and also a stitching vertically in the back of that seat in matching locations. Can anyone come up with more detail on this please? My old fabric has four holes where there seem to have been buttons and no signs of vertical stitching in the backrest.
As for the padding at the back of the seat, the gap that shows in the photograph because the back of the seats are pushed forwards against the wall. When they are standing alone with the back rest firmly against the base stops there is less than a finger thickness gap.
_________________
Rod,
Please visit http://www.historicvws.org.uk
https://www.facebook.com/historicvwclub/
1946 Beetle (Back on the road after over 50 years! Last major outing - Hessisch Oldendorf 2022)
2016 T6 Selfbuild Camper and a LWB MAN TGE in build. |
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RichOakley
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2004
Posts: 1108
Location: Midlands, UK
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| Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:49 am Post subject: |
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From what I understand, my seats were copied from an original pattern with 4 buttons on the back seat.
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rod_vw
Samba Member
Joined: December 20, 2006
Posts: 416
Location: Shropshire, UK
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| Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:26 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Rich,
I don't know what happened to your pictures, they were visible at 7:00pm yesterday but have gone awol now (9:45am Friday).
I can calculate exactly where the buttons were from the holes in the original fabric but don't know whet size they were. Can you help with that info please?
_________________
Rod,
Please visit http://www.historicvws.org.uk
https://www.facebook.com/historicvwclub/
1946 Beetle (Back on the road after over 50 years! Last major outing - Hessisch Oldendorf 2022)
2016 T6 Selfbuild Camper and a LWB MAN TGE in build. |
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kevm
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2004
Posts: 263
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| Anyone got any pictures of some original seats with these buttons, I'm not convinced |
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rod_vw
Samba Member
Joined: December 20, 2006
Posts: 416
Location: Shropshire, UK
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| Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| kevm wrote: |
Seats are looking great Rod btw, I would like to have a closer look at some point, as I mentioned at Sweetcorn I am interested in seeing if there is any reinforcement in the area the spikes go through the material under the seat.
Many thanks for the material too, I am glad I have it for when the time comes. Target is HO 2017 |
Sorry Kev, I missed the query about the reinforcement.
The original seat fabric has a wire inserted in the edge seam which is trapped under the spikes. Wire was the original method of tightening the fabric and providing this strength under the spikes but it does rust! My upholsterer has a special woven thick thread (or thin cord) which he has used to prevent the rust problem. This thread is extremely strong and does not stretch so replaces the wire very well.
My dream target is Bad Camberg 2015 ... but I guess we can all dream!
_________________
Rod,
Please visit http://www.historicvws.org.uk
https://www.facebook.com/historicvwclub/
1946 Beetle (Back on the road after over 50 years! Last major outing - Hessisch Oldendorf 2022)
2016 T6 Selfbuild Camper and a LWB MAN TGE in build. |
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RichOakley
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2004
Posts: 1108
Location: Midlands, UK
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| Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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Kev,
The unrestored 47 I found a few years ago appeared to have the original seat material under the over-covers that had apparently been on the car since the 1950s. These seats definitely had the buttons. I have some pics somewhere, but not very good quality.
Rich. |
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beetlekey
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2004
Posts: 633
Location: MINDEN
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kevm
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2004
Posts: 263
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:29 am Post subject: |
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ok thanks Marcus
Do you have information on the type of buttons used and how they are attached to the seat ?
Thanks
Kevin |
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kevm
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2004
Posts: 263
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:33 am Post subject: |
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| rod_vw wrote: |
| kevm wrote: |
Seats are looking great Rod btw, I would like to have a closer look at some point, as I mentioned at Sweetcorn I am interested in seeing if there is any reinforcement in the area the spikes go through the material under the seat.
Many thanks for the material too, I am glad I have it for when the time comes. Target is HO 2017 |
Sorry Kev, I missed the query about the reinforcement.
The original seat fabric has a wire inserted in the edge seam which is trapped under the spikes. Wire was the original method of tightening the fabric and providing this strength under the spikes but it does rust! My upholsterer has a special woven thick thread (or thin cord) which he has used to prevent the rust problem. This thread is extremely strong and does not stretch so replaces the wire very well.
My dream target is Bad Camberg 2015 ... but I guess we can all dream! |
Thanks Rod, yes I know about the wire, I was planning to use galvanised wire. What I was thinking about was some sort of reinforcment where the spike pierces through the material (in the same seam area as the wire runs). |
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Martin Southwell
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2010
Posts: 984
Location: Bath, England
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:45 am Post subject: 1947 Beetle Seat Buttons - A Description |
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The hunt is on! I've taken my totally original, and unmolested (other than by moths) May 1947 Beetle rear seats apart today, in readiness for Paul to recover then, and the much fabled seat buttons have been removed to reveal exactly what they look like, and where they are situated. Look at the pictures, and then you know what we are all looking for!
The buttons are 100% metal, with 'flying saucer' shaped head of exactly 14mm diameter, being made from two sections - top and bottom (A total height of 4.7mm) which are pressed together, once the very rigid & strong securing wire is passed through the two holes in the bottom section. The top section possesses a lip around its rim, which is bent over the bottom section to hold the two parts together.
The two protruding wires pass through the seat fabric and filling, and anchor on the nearest spring below, with the wire finally being twisted to keep everything in place. The first twist appears at around 21/22mm, and so the total length of the wire needs to be greater than this, by a minimum of 10cm in my estimation.
They are painted grey, obviously to match the seat fabric, and there is no provision for the buttons to be covered by cloth whatever people may tell you. As to where the buttons are situated, here are the locations from my seat. It's not an exact science, as there has to be a spring for them to adhere to, and the location of these obviously vary.
The rear seat squab (the thing you sit on) is 1.3m in width & 50cm deep. The buttons are situated in a line, left to right, 30cm from the front edge of the seat, and 20cm from the rear. From left to right, where the left is as though you are sitting on the seat looking forward, the 1st button is 27cm in, the 2nd, another 26cm in, the 3rd another 25cm in, and the 4th another 27cm in, and 25.5cm from the right hand edge. So not symmetrical, but good enough to the eye.
Do we know where these can be made or purchased? There must be somewhere in the Midlands of the UK, or Hong Kong that could do this!
I do have pictures, but somebody else will have to upload these, as it's such a hassle!  |
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rod_vw
Samba Member
Joined: December 20, 2006
Posts: 416
Location: Shropshire, UK
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:32 am Post subject: |
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OK Martin, pictures uploaded and on here...
Anyone else got pictures to add to this thread please?
_________________
Rod,
Please visit http://www.historicvws.org.uk
https://www.facebook.com/historicvwclub/
1946 Beetle (Back on the road after over 50 years! Last major outing - Hessisch Oldendorf 2022)
2016 T6 Selfbuild Camper and a LWB MAN TGE in build. |
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Martin Southwell
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2010
Posts: 984
Location: Bath, England
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| Posted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:11 am Post subject: Mika Is On The Case! |
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For those who would like to purchase some of these seat buttons, you'll be pleased to know that I have sent three originals to Mika in Finland, who has expressed an interest in making them. Is there anything this fellow can't make?
Although two buttons were sent nearly two weeks ago, they still haven't arrived with him (It's snowing in Finland already) and so another was sent yesterday, in a larger parcel of varying items. No doubt when at least one arrives, he'll cast his eye over them, and finally offer them to a waiting world. |
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kevm
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2004
Posts: 263
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Good news Martin, thanks to you and Mika |
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beetlekey
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2004
Posts: 633
Location: MINDEN
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:06 am Post subject: |
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This is funny.
That is normal german stuff. You need a spezial tool to press both parts together. By the way there must be cloth on it, it is gone, no discussion.
_________________
Hebmüller 581
1953 oval Typ 11G metalblue
1966 1300
If you are searching for vintage keys, look here:
https://www.facebook.com/WagenmanufakturHO |
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originalo
Samba Member
Joined: February 14, 2007
Posts: 358
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:07 am Post subject: |
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To explain: the button head consists of two parts that snap together. Before snapping the upper calott and the bottom part together, the seat fabric is being cut to order and layed around the calott and crimped in position by pressing both knob parts together.
Such systems still exist today, available at upholstery shops, upholsterers and sewing supply, too. |
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Martin Southwell
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2010
Posts: 984
Location: Bath, England
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:31 am Post subject: Thanks for that info, but ..... |
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Thanks for that info. Interesting stuff, and I like the way that Germans hold on to good ideas, rather than disgarding them in the name of progress.
However, I appreciate that nothing is set in stone, but I am not convinced that what you say applies these very early cars. Why? Because if you look at the photos above of the buttons from my 47, you will see that the top and bottom halves are pressed together so tightly still, that no fabric can ever have been between them, otherwise without the fabric in place, they would rattle, which they don't.
Having sent Mika a couple of the originals to reproduce (Metal is 0.4mm) he has taken them apart, without there being any evidence of any remaining fabric, or any fabric ever having being in place, particularly as the buttons are still so well pressed together. Fabric actually takes up quite a volume, and can't be lost without consequences.
I am always aware of what one of my Lecturers used to say: 'Never say never, and never say always, because as soon as you say that, somebody will come forward tp prove you wrong". However, i'm letting the evidence speak for itself! |
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