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Crippler Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2005 Posts: 614 Location: Victoria, TX
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Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 11:18 pm Post subject: Tires? Stock suspension setup. |
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Hey yall.
I have a 71 Squareback. the stock rims/tires are a little skinny for my liking. (stock is 15inch x 4.5 inch with 135s?) I have my eyes set on some of these....
http://www.jbugs.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=500-7750&Category_Code=1278
(STOCK STYLE CHROME WHEEL, 4 LUG, 15 INCH X 5 1/2 INCH WIDTH )
i havent lowered my Squareback at all. i dont think i am going to either. (i think). but i want a tire for those rims that is going to be wider. i know i can theoretically put something intense like 205s, but will it rub? i dont think i want to go THAT wide. Also (i think) i want the front and the back tires/rims to be the same size.
i dont know what would be good for the back AND the front you know?...
if the clearance is different for the front, i suppose i could go a little smaller in the front. but i dont want anything too drastic. no hot rod styling. i like it, but not what i am going for. i just wanna give it a little fuller / beefier look.
so. with stock suspension setup, will any particular size rub? what about a little bit lower profile tire?
thanks a lot. trying to get this sorted out before i buy something in haste... |
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Air-Cooled Head Samba Member
Joined: October 15, 2002 Posts: 4070 Location: Chicago Suburbs
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Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:46 am Post subject: |
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Click the gallery button and check out my Square. Those exact rims, and 165/15 (stock size) tires. I'm down 2 clicks in front, and get some rubbing.
135 are for bicycles. _________________ Everything known to man has been written.
Readers are Leaders! |
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blankmange Type 3 Darksider
Joined: July 17, 2004 Posts: 11498 Location: Bloßer Stahl-preapocalyptic MidCoast
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Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 3:29 am Post subject: |
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If you stay with the stock wheel - yes, the 4 and 1/2 incher, you can run a fairly wide tire -- I run a 195/60 on my stock wheels, and have no rubbing at all (and my front end is lowered two notches).....
The problem with those wheels at JBugs is they are a Type 1 wheel, which means the offset is wrong for a Type 3....
As far as I know, nobody makes a reproduction steel wheel with the proper offset for a T3 -- I have looked... The best I could come up with is the stock steelies off a donor car.... _________________ póg mo thóin
Certified DHS Technician
Samba Member # 24517 |
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69733 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Crippler Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2005 Posts: 614 Location: Victoria, TX
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Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:26 am Post subject: |
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blankmange wrote: |
The problem with those wheels at JBugs is they are a Type 1 wheel, which means the offset is wrong for a Type 3....
As far as I know, nobody makes a reproduction steel wheel with the proper offset for a T3 -- I have looked... The best I could come up with is the stock steelies off a donor car.... |
is the offset more or less than a type3? if its less, are spacers are good idea? |
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Crippler Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2005 Posts: 614 Location: Victoria, TX
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Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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also, "backspace of 25" whats does that mean? |
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Bobnotch Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003 Posts: 22358 Location: Kimball, Mi
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Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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blankmange wrote: |
As far as I know, nobody makes a reproduction steel wheel with the proper offset for a T3 -- I have looked... The best I could come up with is the stock steelies off a donor car.... |
I think John J. did a nice write up here (yes I did try searching for it too ) that said those rims WILL work on a t-3.
crippler wrote: |
but i want a tire for those rims that is going to be wider. i know i can theoretically put something intense like 205s, but will it rub? i dont think i want to go THAT wide. |
If you want something with a larger footprint (tread), then you might want to look at going with a 195-65-15, as this is pretty close to the stock diameter, and gives you an extra 30mm of tread per tire. With these you shouldn't have any rubbing issues either. I hope this helps. _________________ Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote: |
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
Tram wrote: |
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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jaransonT3 Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2005 Posts: 1260 Location: Dearborn, MI
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Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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Bobnotch wrote: |
blankmange wrote: |
As far as I know, nobody makes a reproduction steel wheel with the proper offset for a T3 -- I have looked... The best I could come up with is the stock steelies off a donor car.... |
I think John J. did a nice write up here (yes I did try searching for it too ) that said those rims WILL work on a t-3.
crippler wrote: |
but i want a tire for those rims that is going to be wider. i know i can theoretically put something intense like 205s, but will it rub? i dont think i want to go THAT wide. |
If you want something with a larger footprint (tread), then you might want to look at going with a 195-65-15, as this is pretty close to the stock diameter, and gives you an extra 30mm of tread per tire. With these you shouldn't have any rubbing issues either. I hope this helps. |
Here it is again....
OK, I did a little digging around on the web and in my CIP catalog and came up with some interesting numbers.
First, lets talk tire sizes. I made one assumption that our stock tire aspect ratio is 80%. We have discussed this before with 80%, 83%, and 85% as possible answers. I don't ever remember coming to a confident answer as to which was right. So for the sake of comparison I picked 80%. I have also ignored that fact the all tires bulge out some and am only comparing the tread width. So here we go.....
Tire Diameter Width Comments
165/80R15 25.4" (645mm) 6.5" (165mm) Stock tire size
185/65R15 24.5" (622mm) 7.3" (185mm) Jordan Wilks tire size
195/50R15 22.7" (576mm) 7.7" (195mm) Common aftermarket tire
195/55R15 23.5" (596mm) 7.7" (195mm) My front tire size
205/55R16 24.9" (632mm) 8.1" (205mm) My rear tire size
As you can see Jordan's tires are a full inch bigger in diameter and nearly as wide as my front tires. Still seems like they would be ok until you look at the wheels. I looked through my CIP catalog, which fortunately lists backspacing for most of the wheels they sell. I have made an assumption that the difference between the bead width and maximum width of the wheel is 1 inch since this is important in converting from backspacing to the more useful offset. This is where it gets more interesting....
Wheel Diameter Bead Width Offset Backspacing Frontspacing
Stock Type 3 15" 4-1/2" 1.8" (46mm) 4.56" (116mm) 0.95" (24mm)
EMPI 5-spoke 15" 5- 1/2" 0.44" (11mm) 3.7" (94mm) 2.8" (71mm)
EMPI 8-spoke 15" 5-1/2" 0.75"(19mm) 4.0" (102mm) 2.5" (64mm)
Chrome VW 15" 4-1/2" 1.8" (46mm) 4.5" (114mm) 1.0" (25mm)
Chrome VW 15" 5-1/2" 1.0" (25mm) 4.3" (108mm) 2.2" (56mm)
AR Aero 15" 7" 1.6" (40mm) 5.6"(142mm) 2.4" (61mm)
AR Aero 16" 7" 1.7" (42mm) 5.6" (142mm) 2.4" (61mm)
So if you look at the frontspacing (a term I made up to describe the distance from the mounting face of the wheel to the outside wheel lip (frontspacing + backspacing = beadwidth + 1")), the EMPI 5-spoke and 8-spoke both stick out more than the 7" wide rims that I have on Sophy! The 5-spoke sticks out nearly 2" more than the stock Type 3 wheel! Doesn't surprise me that you are getting fender rub with the nearly 1" wider tire moved outward nearly 2" and being lowered 2 notches.
Offset is important and most of the aftermarket VW wheels are not going to be right for a Type 3. That being said it looks like the Chrome 4-1/2" VW wheels are actually type 3 wheels! Of course that assumes that CIP did not make a typo in their catalog. I would be leary and call there tech support and have them measure one before ordering. Anyone have first hand experience with the aftermarket chrome 4-1/2" VW wheels? Are they really 46mm offset? _________________ Later,
John Jaranson
'66 Square
'69 Square
'70-1 Fasty
https://www.carartbyjohn.com
https://www.carartbyjohn.com/2024Invasion/ |
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blankmange Type 3 Darksider
Joined: July 17, 2004 Posts: 11498 Location: Bloßer Stahl-preapocalyptic MidCoast
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Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:47 am Post subject: |
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perhaps we can ask Everett to make that a sticky and you won't have to dig it up... ever... again.... _________________ póg mo thóin
Certified DHS Technician
Samba Member # 24517 |
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jimmynotch Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2003 Posts: 2901 Location: sacramento
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Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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Yes! Sticky this... It is valuable info since wheels/tires are always a question on this forum... Us Type 3 guys get the shaft with wheel choices.
For what it is worth, I bought those stock style wheels and they rubbed like hell at stock height with 195/15. They were a little better with 195/60/15 but looked like they stuck out too far. In the end I sold them and use either the stock steelies or OG rivieras. _________________ Jim in Sacto -
my wonderful loving supportive wife wrote: |
You guys are dorks. |
1965 1500-S Notchback --"Maggy"
1971 Type 2 Double Cab --"George"
TOOB member #2 |
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EverettB Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000 Posts: 69733 Location: Phoenix Metro
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Crippler Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2005 Posts: 614 Location: Victoria, TX
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Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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thanks everyone. lots of help. |
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Vee Dugg Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2004 Posts: 29 Location: Shoreline, Washington
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Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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jaransonT3 wrote: |
Here it is again....
OK, I did a little digging around on the web and in my CIP catalog and came up with some interesting numbers.
First, lets talk tire sizes. I made one assumption that our stock tire aspect ratio is 80%. We have discussed this before with 80%, 83%, and 85% as possible answers. I don't ever remember coming to a confident answer as to which was right. So for the sake of comparison I picked 80%. I have also ignored that fact the all tires bulge out some and am only comparing the tread width. So here we go.....
Tire Diameter Width Comments
165/80R15 25.4" (645mm) 6.5" (165mm) Stock tire size
185/65R15 24.5" (622mm) 7.3" (185mm) Jordan Wilks tire size
195/50R15 22.7" (576mm) 7.7" (195mm) Common aftermarket tire
195/55R15 23.5" (596mm) 7.7" (195mm) My front tire size
205/55R16 24.9" (632mm) 8.1" (205mm) My rear tire size
As you can see Jordan's tires are a full inch bigger in diameter and nearly as wide as my front tires. Still seems like they would be ok until you look at the wheels. I looked through my CIP catalog, which fortunately lists backspacing for most of the wheels they sell. I have made an assumption that the difference between the bead width and maximum width of the wheel is 1 inch since this is important in converting from backspacing to the more useful offset. This is where it gets more interesting....
Wheel Diameter Bead Width Offset Backspacing Frontspacing
Stock Type 3 15" 4-1/2" 1.8" (46mm) 4.56" (116mm) 0.95" (24mm)
EMPI 5-spoke 15" 5- 1/2" 0.44" (11mm) 3.7" (94mm) 2.8" (71mm)
EMPI 8-spoke 15" 5-1/2" 0.75"(19mm) 4.0" (102mm) 2.5" (64mm)
Chrome VW 15" 4-1/2" 1.8" (46mm) 4.5" (114mm) 1.0" (25mm)
Chrome VW 15" 5-1/2" 1.0" (25mm) 4.3" (108mm) 2.2" (56mm)
AR Aero 15" 7" 1.6" (40mm) 5.6"(142mm) 2.4" (61mm)
AR Aero 16" 7" 1.7" (42mm) 5.6" (142mm) 2.4" (61mm)
So if you look at the frontspacing (a term I made up to describe the distance from the mounting face of the wheel to the outside wheel lip (frontspacing + backspacing = beadwidth + 1")), the EMPI 5-spoke and 8-spoke both stick out more than the 7" wide rims that I have on Sophy! The 5-spoke sticks out nearly 2" more than the stock Type 3 wheel! Doesn't surprise me that you are getting fender rub with the nearly 1" wider tire moved outward nearly 2" and being lowered 2 notches.
Offset is important and most of the aftermarket VW wheels are not going to be right for a Type 3. That being said it looks like the Chrome 4-1/2" VW wheels are actually type 3 wheels! Of course that assumes that CIP did not make a typo in their catalog. I would be leary and call there tech support and have them measure one before ordering. Anyone have first hand experience with the aftermarket chrome 4-1/2" VW wheels? Are they really 46mm offset? |
Wow....thanks for getting that together.
Anyone have experience with Formula Vee rims (see my avatar) and different tires? I have 165's on mine but 1" of clearance at the most in the back (stock height) and am hoping to lower the front one tick. _________________ 68 diamond blue fastback
With 1600 cc's of fuel injected goodness
Click to view image |
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blankmange Type 3 Darksider
Joined: July 17, 2004 Posts: 11498 Location: Bloßer Stahl-preapocalyptic MidCoast
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Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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Vee Dugg wrote: |
Wow....thanks for getting that together.
Anyone have experience with Formula Vee rims (see my avatar) and different tires? I have 165's on mine but 1" of clearance at the most in the back (stock height) and am hoping to lower the front one tick. |
I had always heard that turtlebacks (the wheel in your av) had a decent offset for T3's... I know Annie was running them... _________________ póg mo thóin
Certified DHS Technician
Samba Member # 24517 |
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BerT3 Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2002 Posts: 1569 Location: Antwerp
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Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:51 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
I had always heard that turtlebacks (the wheel in your av) had a decent offset for T3's |
True, and they are even better for T34's !
BerT3 |
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Vee Dugg Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2004 Posts: 29 Location: Shoreline, Washington
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Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:46 am Post subject: |
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OK, but the 165's are less than an inch from rubbing in the read.
Would the lower profilecompensate for the wider tire? _________________ 68 diamond blue fastback
With 1600 cc's of fuel injected goodness
Click to view image |
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blankmange Type 3 Darksider
Joined: July 17, 2004 Posts: 11498 Location: Bloßer Stahl-preapocalyptic MidCoast
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Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:52 am Post subject: |
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Vee Dugg wrote: |
OK, but the 165's are less than an inch from rubbing in the read.
Would the lower profilecompensate for the wider tire? |
yes... I run 195/65's and have absolutely no rubbing with my front lowered 2 notches... _________________ póg mo thóin
Certified DHS Technician
Samba Member # 24517 |
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kenikh Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2005 Posts: 89 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:01 pm Post subject: Interesting comparison of Porsche wheels |
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I saw this chart of Porsche wheels and it made me wonder what VW wheels would look like using a similar image:
For reference of terms:
[/img] _________________ >Kenik<
- 1971 Fastback Resto Hotrod
- 1969 Porsche 911S
"Now, to put a water-cooled engine in the rear and to have the radiator in the front, that's not very intelligent."
-Ferry Porsche |
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Josie_Aus Samba Member
Joined: September 13, 2005 Posts: 141 Location: Australia
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Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:47 am Post subject: |
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Hi
I run 195/65's on my car, on my Type 1 offset 5.5 inch rims..
I did get some rubbing when going over bumps on the back, but the guard lips have been rolled now, so that's not a problem anymore..
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Locknar Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2005 Posts: 283 Location: Rebel South
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Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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I have a stock suspension and use 195's in the front and 205's in the rear. No problems as all and I have driven over everything. _________________ Life is a web woven by necessity and chance.
My Fav vw shop: www.airkooledkustoms.com
1973-T3-SQB
1971-1302 |
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