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Glenn73
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2011
Posts: 1190
Location: West Jordan UT
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31378
Location: Hot Arizona
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 Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| CraigRobbo wrote: |
Hello guys. I was pointed in the direction of this thread.
It has helped me out a lot and to understand too!
I have the late style throw bearing, but the engine I have just fitted has the old style pressure plate.
Do I need the center ring on this clutch?
At the moment the engine is installed in the car with NO center ring on the above style clutch, but it will not engage.
any pointers? |
I had a pressure plate changeover experience about five years ago, moved my engine with that 3-finger pressure plate from my 1970 to the later style transmission, so I had to remove that center ring part from my existing pressure plate. Mine has worked flawlessly. You did leave the three coiled springs on there, correct?
Question: do you mean that the clutch will not "engage" like in lock up to the transmission, or that the clutch will not "disengage" so you can change gears?
My first guess would be that with installing a new pressure plate/clutch disc that your clutch cable adjustment could be way off. How much free play does your clutch pedal have at the pedal top? Should be about 3/4 of an inch.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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CraigRobbo
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Joined: August 05, 2013
Posts: 131
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:05 am Post subject: |
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Hello guys, thank you for the responses.
So to get a clearer picture.
My 1914cc engine with the new style clutch died on me so i have been given a 1200 engine with the 3 finger style clutch.
I had no issues with the clutch before but after the engine swap the clutch no longer disengages (so cannot change gear)
I have looked under the car and the cable is pulling the lever/fork as it should.
even with the pedal right to the floor there is no 'resistance' on the clutch its just loose all the way (So presumably its not even touching the pressure plate)
I hope this helps to build a better picture of my scenario and as always help is GREATLY appreciated! |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15985
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Do you have a pic of your TO bearing? Maybe a make/part#?
I'm wondering if you actually have an early style pressure plate and TO bearing and have messed it up by removing the centering ring. The centering ring is needed on the earlier clutch setup.
Also, was there any work done on the flywheel? Did you have the friction surface cut flat? Did they also cut the mounting flange the same amount?
_________________
AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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CraigRobbo
Samba Member
Joined: August 05, 2013
Posts: 131
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| Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks again for the reply.
Its definably the later style my car is a 1303S, I removed the old clutch just yesterday and that had no ring on it.
Here are the only pics I have right now as the engine is currently in the car.
as for any other work, I am really not sure I'm afraid sorry.
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15985
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| CraigRobbo wrote: |
I have the late style throw bearing, but the engine I have just fitted has the old style pressure plate.
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This should not apply since your pressure plate was already installed on the engine, but the pic above (I realize not your actual PP) shows the shipping "tabs" that are installed under the outer end of the release arms. U-shaped spacers that lock the release arms in place. You can see them in the above pic. I'm assuming yours were already removed since the PP was installed on the engine, but you should check. You press down on the center ring to release the pressure and pull all three spacers out.
The second point is that while some "old-style" PPs allow you to remove the center ring from the PP and use it with the later style TO bearings.... I don't know that all of them do.
Since the PP was installed on the engine, and not new... could it be bad?
_________________
AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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Tony Ryan
Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2005
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:31 am Post subject: engine won't go in |
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| early 70's 12 volt tranny with correct new throw out bearing on a guide tube that looks okay, Kennedy clutch with ring removed, rebuilt engine that turns over when installed loosely. When I tighten the 4 bolts and snug the engine to the tranny I can't turn over the engine. I'm looking for suggestions about what is wrong and what to do. |
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31378
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:19 am Post subject: Re: engine won't go in |
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| Tony Ryan wrote: |
| early 70's 12 volt tranny with correct new throw out bearing on a guide tube that looks okay, Kennedy clutch with ring removed, rebuilt engine that turns over when installed loosely. When I tighten the 4 bolts and snug the engine to the tranny I can't turn over the engine. I'm looking for suggestions about what is wrong and what to do. |
If me: I'd pull the engine, take good photos of the bell housing and the installed pressure plate and post them here.
I might even take the pressure plate off and test-install the engine, to see if the engine then turns over when I try it.
I'm assuming that the clutch cable wing nut is fully backed to the end of the cable threads so the cable is real loose at this point. If not, lube it and do that.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Tony Ryan
Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2005
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:17 pm Post subject: engine won't go in |
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| Thanks for your suggestion. It's people like you who share your VW knowledge and experience that make TheSamba such a useful tool for the rest of us. I dropped the engine and discovered a scratch on the bell housing and a scratched welded nut like thing on the pressure plate (3'oclock in the photo), probably added as a balancing weight. The bell housing seems a bit thin there unless I grind all the way thru so I guess I'll grind the welded weight thing. |
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Eldufdiablo
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Joined: August 26, 2012
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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This is a side by side comparison of what I Just got and what was in. I am thinking I got the wrong pressure plate. I did my homework and I thought I got the right one. It just looks different on the mounting profile. I know I will have to take out the center ring but wanted to make sure I had the right thing before I kept going. Here are some close up pics
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15985
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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The newer looking one has a better outer casing. It is one piece all the way around the edge. This makes for a stiffer shell.
As long as the bolt holes line up and the edge fits inside the mounting lip on the flywheel, install it.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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binner
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2011
Posts: 14
Location: Brissie, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:09 am Post subject: this goes with that |
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I have this PP and this throw out bearing set up. Is this correct?. Thanks in advance Binner
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nodak_85
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Joined: July 09, 2009
Posts: 381
Location: Fargo North Dakota
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| So just to get this straight befor I order a new clutch. In my 63 I do not have the collar in the transmission so in need the pressure plate with the collar correct? |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15985
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| nodak_85 wrote: |
| So just to get this straight befor I order a new clutch. In my 63 I do not have the collar in the transmission so in need the pressure plate with the collar correct? |
You need to confirm if your engine has a 180mm or 200mm flywheel. All of the 180mm pressure plates should have the centering ring.
The early style 200mm PPs (up to around '70) should also have the centering ring that you will need for the early style TO bearing.
_________________
AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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nodak_85
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Joined: July 09, 2009
Posts: 381
Location: Fargo North Dakota
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| It's is a 200mm fly wheel |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15985
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| nodak_85 wrote: |
| It's is a 200mm fly wheel |
Then you will want to order the '70-earlier pressure plate with the centering ring. It may be either the spring or diaphragm type. Either will work.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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keo808
Samba Member
Joined: June 17, 2006
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| kme9418 wrote: |
| Asked more simply: Is there an advantage to the late style throwout bearing with the guide bushing over the early style without? |
It appears that this question was never answered directly...anyone got an answer? I'm also curious.. |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15985
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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| kme9418 wrote: |
| Asked more simply: Is there an advantage to the late style throwout bearing with the guide bushing over the early style without? |
The later style TO bearing design has the bearing riding the sleeve around the input shaft. This means the TO bearing moves parallel to the input shaft and will engage the pp face on (evenly), applying even pressure.
The earlier style TO bearing hangs from the release arms and travels in an arc. There is nothing to keep it parallel with the face of the pp until it hits the centering ring on the spinning pp. This means the engagement is not always even. This could cause early failure of the pp or TO bearing.
FYI, back in the 80's I seem to recall most clutch problems were related to TO bearings making noise. When we would tear into the clutch we often found that the clutch disc and pp were still good. It was only the TO bearing that had worn. The best practice was to replace all three while you were in there, but it was often the TO bearing that failed. This could be related to inexperienced drivers that rode the clutch, but it makes sense that a stationary bearing that has to engage a pp spinning at 1500-4000rpm and apply pressure to release the clutch disc... would wear out quickly.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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keo808
Samba Member
Joined: June 17, 2006
Posts: 48
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
| kme9418 wrote: |
| Asked more simply: Is there an advantage to the late style throwout bearing with the guide bushing over the early style without? |
The later style TO bearing design has the bearing riding the sleeve around the input shaft. This means the TO bearing moves parallel to the input shaft and will engage the pp face on (evenly), applying even pressure.
The earlier style TO bearing hangs from the release arms and travels in an arc. There is nothing to keep it parallel with the face of the pp until it hits the centering ring on the spinning pp. This means the engagement is not always even. This could cause early failure of the pp or TO bearing.
FYI, back in the 80's I seem to recall most clutch problems were related to TO bearings making noise. When we would tear into the clutch we often found that the clutch disc and pp were still good. It was only the TO bearing that had worn. The best practice was to replace all three while you were in there, but it was often the TO bearing that failed. This could be related to inexperienced drivers that rode the clutch, but it makes sense that a stationary bearing that has to engage a pp spinning at 1500-4000rpm and apply pressure to release the clutch disc... would wear out quickly. |
With that being said...is it worth the effort to do a conversion, when the engine and transmission are out? Basically, does the benefits outweigh the effort?
"...input shaft seal conversion kit that allows earlier transmissions to use the later style throwout bearings:" Referenced and shown on Page 7 of this thread. |
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ashman40
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Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15985
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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It depends which of the follow trains of thought you follow....
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." 
"If it ain't broke... improve it until it is." 
Seriously, if your clutch works and you don't feel like the TO bearing is failing prematurely (you probably won't recall the last time you replaced it anyway), then you don't have a problem.
The VW Beetle is different than most other cars in that removing the engine is not that difficult if you have all the tools.
When I was learning to drive a stick my father pounded into me to downshift because braking alone would wear the brake shoes out sooner. The clutch was sturdier and the force of breaking would be carried by the engine/transmission which are meant to last 100,000mi+, brake shoes were not.
If you think about it, it is easier to replace the clutch parts on a Beetle than it is to replace the rear brake shoes. Not everyone has a Torque-Buddy or a 250 ft-lb torque wrench to R&R the rear axle nut, but many have the jack and jack stands needed to pull the engine.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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