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Clutches - what pressure plate with what throwout bearing
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boston63boston63
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok i think i have this all correct in my head. I am replacing my 1200 cc engine on my 63 with 1300cc engine i picked up. the clutch and pressure plate on the 1300 seem to be good.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


this is the style of throw bearing on my car now. i plan to replace even though it seems to be in good condition...

not my transmission but i have the same exact setup

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


i plan to replace my throw bearing with the same one. would this be the correct bearing to use with the style pressure plate on my engine now.

thanks for all the help
PHIL
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Cusser
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil - that's correct, your diaphragm pressure plate has the center ring, like it should.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

boston63boston63 wrote:
Ok i think i have this all correct in my head. I am replacing my 1200 cc engine on my 63 with 1300cc engine i picked up. the clutch and pressure plate on the 1300 seem to be good.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I can't tell from your pic but are the flywheels the same size? Pre-67 Beetles came with 180mm flywheels. Later models went to 200mm ones. The larger ones will fit into the transmission bell housing with just a bit of grinding but the starter and starter bushing will need to be changed to engage the flywheel teeth properly. Just something to check if you're not using the same flywheel.
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Blue69Baja
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

keifernet wrote:
I personally would get the later style pressure plate and not use that early one with the collar removed. I have never had much luck with that.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


During a rebuild of my BAJA's 1915 I decided to replace the clutch. I ordered a PP and clutch plate... I was told that the early PP works, just remove the ring....

Well after 8 months of waiting for the machinist to finish up my engine I began to put stuff together and I noticed that the early PP is actually thicker, even if I removed the ring...

I had previously read this thread and was aware of folks having real difficulty even after matching things/removing things etc..... So here are some clues to the reason not to mix and remove.... Get the correct parts and even then
MEASURE!!!!!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Wow, that looks like a lot more than the thickness of the ring.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The ring is .8cm....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Measured a difference of about .6cm...Even after you remove the ring.
That difference will probably make your adjustment be clear to the end of the cable threads... and you will not even be able to have any pedal free play....

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So make sure that you measure this dimension when replacing your PP.... It does not take very much to cause a major problem...


Jim
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Cusser
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I moved the engine from my 1970 to my 1971, I simply removed the center ring from the pressure plate, and it has been fine, about 6 years now.
I have an old-style "3-finger" pressure plate though. And I added a new spring "made in China" clutch disc at that time, has been fine. And with 1835cc engine too.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blue69Baja wrote:
... measured a difference of about .6 cm ...


Measurements made on an uninstalled pressure plate are meaningless. The fingers/thrust ring get sucked
in when the plate is bolted to the flywheel, and the amount of movement depends on exactly how the
clutch was made, and varies between different manufacturers. Also, you are comparing a new clutch to a used and presumably somewhat worn-out one.

Even if there were an actual difference in the installed finger height of .6 cm (6 mm), that that would mean a
difference of about 4 mm in the adjusting nut position. Not quite the big deal.
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Blue69Baja
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kreemoweet wrote:
Blue69Baja wrote:
... measured a difference of about .6 cm ...


Measurements made on an uninstalled pressure plate are meaningless. The fingers/thrust ring get sucked
in when the plate is bolted to the flywheel, and the amount of movement depends on exactly how the
clutch was made, and varies between different manufacturers. Also, you are comparing a new clutch to a used and presumably somewhat worn-out one.

Even if there were an actual difference in the installed finger height of .6 cm (6 mm), that that would mean a
difference of about 4 mm in the adjusting nut position. Not quite the big deal.


From PP face to mounting surface of both PP's are the same.

So how far do you think the distance is from the throwout bearing to the fingers is when a clutch is adjusted properly?

Also, what is the ratio of the arms that move the throwout bearing to the arm that the clutch cable attaches to?

From what you said " .6cm that would mean a difference of about .4cm in the adjusting nut position"....

Are you saying that the ratio is less than 1 to 1? Cable arm to Bearing finger center?

I see the measurement is almost 2 to 1... Cable arm to bearing finger center.... So that would double the distance needed to compensate for the .6 mm thus 1.2 cm...

Granted there is a degree of adjustment on the cable...
But one may be getting to lands end to compensate for the fatter assembly... Just saying... And why would guys like Keifernet say, "I personally would get the later style pressure plate and not use that early one with the collar removed. I have never had much luck with that.".

I do find it important to offer the reason to measure things when in doubt.


I will add this...

I have a bone stock 56,000 mi 72 Super. The engine has never been out of the car no new clutch etc. The clutch is still great.

The adjustment on the clutch cable is less that .2 cm to lands end, no more threads... If a novice were to put this fat PP with the ring removed there would not be enough adjustment to obtain the clutch pedal free play... Just saying.

Jim
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kreemoweet
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, you are correct, I had the relative movement of cable lever/release bearing backwards. But ...

I just measured a trans at hand, and operating shaft center to center of cable arm eye is just about 3 in., operating shaft center to
release bearing center is just about 2 inches, so it would take .9 cm movement at the cable eye to compensate for a .6 cm
"fatter" PP. Still not very much.

I'm saying, though, that you haven't shown the PP is "fatter" until you measure it when INSTALLED. If you've ever seen one
of those 3-arm diaphragm PP's being installed, you will not fail to notice that the thrust ring/arm tips get pulled in something
like 4 or 5 inches as the mounting bolts get tightened. Now, that's FAT!

When I adjust a clutch, I pay no attention to the pedal "free play", because that method makes no sense to me. The important
stuff is happening at the other end of the vehicle. I adjust the clutch cable just tight enough that full release is achieved at the
bottom of the pedal travel. That way, the pressure plate spring/diaphragm is being flexed no further than is necessary. The
free play falls where it may, and is usually a lot more than "spec". Also, the free play can vary significantly from one clutch plate to
another, even between two of the same brand/model. That right there tells me that adjusting the clutch by free play will not
give consistent results in actual clutch operation.

I would guess the distance between the release bearing and thrust plate/fingers ends up being somewhere in the range 2-6 mm.
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Blue69Baja
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have some time today, I will install both PP's with the same disk and do some measurements. That will solve part of the issue for folks. Understand the compression of the fingers during install.

I am not going to install the thicker PP, going to get a the correct late PP.

With .6cm not being very much it sure does when it comes to clutch disk wear eh? New thickness is .8xx...and worn out is around .5xx...
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Last edited by Blue69Baja on Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Blue69Baja
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, I installed each PP and did measurments.

The late PP is a Sachs
The early is:
Euromax vwc211-14-25

The early Euromax PP with the ring removed does spec out within .2cm of the Sachs in all dimensions, including from the engine transmission bell housing matching surface...

My 1915 is ready for re-installation in the Blue69baja.

The engine has had some freshing up, align bored and all the things necessary to continue to make it reliable.

Thanks for a great thread.

Jim
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:29 pm    Post subject: Noise Reply with quote

I do have the correct tob and clutch pp (early style). Got a Bug IRS 71 for my Bus. Anyway shifts fine-problem is when the clutch pedal is pushed down there is a low grinding noise, when in neutral or clutch pedal not depressed no noise?
1.New TOB-bad or clips broke?
2. Clutch dics going bad?
3. Clutch PP going bad?
4. Other??
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peteandvanessa
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've read this thread from front to back, but I can't find the answer to the following question.

I have the following style early throw out bearing:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The engine that is being shipped to me will have a similar pressure plate set up as this:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Unfortunately, the engine builder thought I had the later throw out bearing, so he removed this centering ring from the pressure plate:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I know I have to reinstall the centering onto the pressure plate, but how easy is that and how is it done?

I want to make sure I get this right before installing the engine into my Bug

Here's the actual pic of my motor with the centering installed, before the engine builder removed the centering ring:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Looking at the pics, it would seem to me that I have to remove the pressure plate, then there is a spiral ring on the back of the centering ring that I need to remove my turning the spiral ring off. Then I fit the centering ring to the pressure plate by putting it onto the pressure plate from the front and then at the rear of the pressure plate, put the spiral ring on to hold it in place, then refit the pressure plate back onto the engine (also centering the clutch plate again as I tighten the pressure plate bolts down). Is that correct?
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Cusser
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Call the builder; since he took it off, should be able to tell you how to put it back on.


Mine was the opposite situation: I had to remove the center ring from my 3-finger pressure plate (from a 1970) to install into a '71 transmission.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cusser wrote:
Call the builder; since he took it off, should be able to tell you how to put it back on.


Mine was the opposite situation: I had to remove the center ring from my 3-finger pressure plate (from a 1970) to install into a '71 transmission.


I emailed him today, I'll post back here when he responds.

So I assume you removed your centering ring, is it as simple as reversing what you did to remove the ring, if so, how did you remove the ring?
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Cusser
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

peteandvanessa wrote:
Cusser wrote:
Call the builder; since he took it off, should be able to tell you how to put it back on.


Mine was the opposite situation: I had to remove the center ring from my 3-finger pressure plate (from a 1970) to install into a '71 transmission.


I emailed him today, I'll post back here when he responds.

So I assume you removed your centering ring, is it as simple as reversing what you did to remove the ring, if so, how did you remove the ring?



For mine (3-finger) it would be. I used a screwdriver to pry up the three wire loops. Mine is a completely different design.
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GeorgeL
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From the looks of it you can just get it started on one side, push it off-center, work it around to get all the fingers behind the snap ring, and then center it.

If there isn't enough play for that, you'll have to dismount the pressure plate from the flywheel, take the snap ring off the centering ring, hold the ring in place, and reinstall the snap ring.

Have you checked the throwout fork for wear where the bearing pivots on it? this is where they fail and you don't want to tear it down again. Don't forget to safety-wire the clips in place before you put the engine in.

If it's worn and you're lucky enough to have the three tapped holes behind the bearing you might want to switch to a late model sleeve, fork, and bearing. Save yourself problems down the road.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GeorgeL wrote:
From the looks of it you can just get it started on one side, push it off-center, work it around to get all the fingers behind the snap ring, and then center it.

If there isn't enough play for that, you'll have to dismount the pressure plate from the flywheel, take the snap ring off the centering ring, hold the ring in place, and reinstall the snap ring.

Have you checked the throwout fork for wear where the bearing pivots on it? this is where they fail and you don't want to tear it down again. Don't forget to safety-wire the clips in place before you put the engine in.

If it's worn and you're lucky enough to have the three tapped holes behind the bearing you might want to switch to a late model sleeve, fork, and bearing. Save yourself problems down the road.


Thanks George, I think I'm going to have to remove the pressure plate to get it on, I don't think there's enough wiggle room to get it in without removing the plate. The transmission is freshly rebuilt with a new throwout fork, so no wear at all.
I do have to add the safety wire to hold in the throw out bearing. The transmission doesn't have the three tapped holes, so that's why I can't add the late model throw out bearing and sleeve.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The transmission doesn't have the three tapped holes, so that's why I can't add the late model throw out bearing and sleeve.[/quote]

You can't just change the throw out bearing. The early and late style transaxles use a different throwout fork
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mikeonthebike wrote:
The transmission doesn't have the three tapped holes, so that's why I can't add the late model throw out bearing and sleeve.


You can't just change the throw out bearing. The early and late style transaxles use a different throwout fork[/quote]

I didn't know that either Embarassed

Fortunately my throwout fork is set up for the early throw out bearing, I fitted it last week, so I know that's good to go.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peteandvanessa wrote:
I've read this thread from front to back, but I can't find the answer to the following question.

I have the following style early throw out bearing:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Pete,
I have a better solution. Your gearbox is a 1970. Take the TO bearing off and remove the cross shaft. Get the late guide tube, cross shaft and TO bearing. Using the guide tube, hold it on top of the input seal and mark where the holes need to go. Drill and tap M7.
Then install all the late TO bearing bits, they are much more reliable.
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