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No Spark...What'd I do?
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Freebirdbeachbum
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:19 pm    Post subject: No Spark...What'd I do? Reply with quote

After fumbling my way thru R&Ring the ignition switch, everything seems to be working as designed except now I'm getting no spark. I have power to the coil and, just prior to replacing the ignition switch, I did start it using a remote switch in diagnosing the no crank issue.

I must have done something wrong. Any ideas what?
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Cusser
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: No Spark...What'd I do? Reply with quote

Real points-style distributor or aftermarket "electronic/Pertronix" ????
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:03 pm    Post subject: Re: No Spark...What'd I do? Reply with quote

You didn't ID the model year of your car.
From '71-onward VW added the "X" circuit to the ignition switch. This is a black/yellow wire. Similar to the 15 circuit black wire from the ignition switch the X circuit is powered when the key is in the ON/RUN position. But unlike the 15 circuit the X circuit is not powered while the key is in the START position.
It is easy to mix these two wires up, but what happens is the ignition coil is powered when testing but there is no power to the ignition coil while cranking the engine.

The black 15 wire connects from the ignition switch to the #11 or #12 fuse INPUT side.
The X black/yellow wire connects to the INPUT side of fuse 10 in model years from '72-later.
Double check you do not have these wires swapped.


To confirm your ignition is actually powered while starting the engine, place a test lamp or VM on the ignition coil #15 terminal and confirm there is voltage there while the key is in the START position and the engine is cranking.


There is also a small chance the ignition switch is faulty. Some have reported issue with new aftermarket ignition switches. You could do a test and confirm each wire on the ignition switch is powered or not in the 3 different switch positions.
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Freebirdbeachbum
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:39 pm    Post subject: Re: No Spark...What'd I do? Reply with quote

Cusser wrote:
Real points-style distributor or aftermarket "electronic/Pertronix" ????

Aftermarket
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Cusser
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:58 am    Post subject: Re: No Spark...What'd I do? Reply with quote

Freebirdbeachbum wrote:
Cusser wrote:
Real points-style distributor or aftermarket "electronic/Pertronix" ????

Aftermarket


Sorry !!!

If your wires are correct, suspect the aftermarket distributor.
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Rome
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:12 am    Post subject: Re: No Spark...What'd I do? Reply with quote

Is your big cable from coil to distributor confirmed to be fully inserted into each component firmly? I had two occasions, decades apart, where the cable was only held in place in the coil by the rubber boot's tension; that is, the actual metal contacts were not tight. After time and driving vibrations, the contact inside the coil center terminal was lost and the car quit cleanly while driving. To fix it, I spread the metal contacts on the end of the coil wire slightly apart with pliers in my in-car tool kit, pressed the cable firmly back into the coil, and the car started right up again. Came from using an old cable I had lying around.
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Freebirdbeachbum
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:22 am    Post subject: Re: No Spark...What'd I do? Reply with quote

ashman40 wrote:
You didn't ID the model year of your car.
From '71-onward VW added the "X" circuit to the ignition switch. This is a black/yellow wire. Similar to the 15 circuit black wire from the ignition switch the X circuit is powered when the key is in the ON/RUN position. But unlike the 15 circuit the X circuit is not powered while the key is in the START position.
It is easy to mix these two wires up, but what happens is the ignition coil is powered when testing but there is no power to the ignition coil while cranking the engine.

The black 15 wire connects from the ignition switch to the #11 or #12 fuse INPUT side.
The X black/yellow wire connects to the INPUT side of fuse 10 in model years from '72-later.
Double check you do not have these wires swapped.


To confirm your ignition is actually powered while starting the engine, place a test lamp or VM on the ignition coil #15 terminal and confirm there is voltage there while the key is in the START position and the engine is cranking.


There is also a small chance the ignition switch is faulty. Some have reported issue with new aftermarket ignition switches. You could do a test and confirm each wire on the ignition switch is powered or not in the 3 different switch positions.


Thanks Ashman. BTW, this is the '71 Super in my signature.

As you suspected, the ignition coil #15 terminal loses voltage when cranking.

This wiring diagram in the service manual and the one from JBugs where I purchased the switch shows the x-black/yellow connecting to the red/black going to the light switch.

When you refer to the "INPUT" side, which side is that exactly?
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:12 am    Post subject: Re: No Spark...What'd I do? Reply with quote

Freebirdbeachbum wrote:
BTW, this is the '71 Super in my signature.

Ahhh, thanks. I missed that. Wink


Freebirdbeachbum wrote:
This wiring diagram in the service manual and the one from JBugs where I purchased the switch shows the x-black/yellow connecting to the red/black going to the light switch.

Not sure about a red/black wire but in '71 the X black/yellow wire powered the "X" terminal on the headlight switch.
In later years this wire powered multiple devices in addition to the headlights.


Freebirdbeachbum wrote:
As you suspected, the ignition coil #15 terminal loses voltage when cranking.

THIS is a problem. You need to find out if the problem exists at the ignition switch. Crawl under the steering column and find the solid black wire coming out of the ignition switch. Test this wire while the key is in the START position. No voltage here means the problem is internal to the switch.


Freebirdbeachbum wrote:
When you refer to the "INPUT" side, which side is that exactly?

Remove the fuse from a powered fuse (simulating the fuse blowing) one of the clips that holds the fuse will still remain powered. This is the INPUT side. You should find that all the fuse INPUTS are along the same side of the fuse box.
Mixing up the INPUT/OUTPUTS side of the fuse when connecting wires will case issues like fuses blowing for no apparent reason.
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Freebirdbeachbum
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 4:23 pm    Post subject: Re: No Spark...What'd I do? Reply with quote

ashman40 wrote:
Freebirdbeachbum wrote:
BTW, this is the '71 Super in my signature.

Ahhh, thanks. I missed that. Wink


Freebirdbeachbum wrote:
This wiring diagram in the service manual and the one from JBugs where I purchased the switch shows the x-black/yellow connecting to the red/black going to the light switch.

Not sure about a red/black wire but in '71 the X black/yellow wire powered the "X" terminal on the headlight switch.
In later years this wire powered multiple devices in addition to the headlights.


Freebirdbeachbum wrote:
As you suspected, the ignition coil #15 terminal loses voltage when cranking.

THIS is a problem. You need to find out if the problem exists at the ignition switch. Crawl under the steering column and find the solid black wire coming out of the ignition switch. Test this wire while the key is in the START position. No voltage here means the problem is internal to the switch.


Freebirdbeachbum wrote:
When you refer to the "INPUT" side, which side is that exactly?

Remove the fuse from a powered fuse (simulating the fuse blowing) one of the clips that holds the fuse will still remain powered. This is the INPUT side. You should find that all the fuse INPUTS are along the same side of the fuse box.
Mixing up the INPUT/OUTPUTS side of the fuse when connecting wires will case issues like fuses blowing for no apparent reason.


I confirmed the black wire is on the input side. However, I failed to be able to contort myself and/or use a mirror to put a test light on that wire coming out of the switch so I did it at the other end of the wire after disconnecting from the fuse block.

Sure enough, it has voltage in the on position and loses it in the start position.
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sb001
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:08 pm    Post subject: Re: No Spark...What'd I do? Reply with quote

And you are absolutely SURE the wire going from the ignition switch to your fuse box (should be coming in to the input side of #11 fuse on your 71) is solid black wire? That would be the #15 (ignition-powered in ON and START positions)

Just as a confirmation to see whether these two wires (the solid black #15 wire and the yellow/ black "X" wire) are mixed up: turn the key to the ON position, then turn the headlights on, then turn the key to the START position and see whether or not the headlights go out when you turn it to START.
If they don't, then either those two wires are mixed up or it's a flaw in the new ignition switch.
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Freebirdbeachbum
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:03 pm    Post subject: Re: No Spark...What'd I do? Reply with quote

sb001 wrote:
And you are absolutely SURE the wire going from the ignition switch to your fuse box (should be coming in to the input side of #11 fuse on your 71) is solid black wire? That would be the #15 (ignition-powered in ON and START positions)

Just as a confirmation to see whether these two wires (the solid black #15 wire and the yellow/ black "X" wire) are mixed up: turn the key to the ON position, then turn the headlights on, then turn the key to the START position and see whether or not the headlights go out when you turn it to START.
If they don't, then either those two wires are mixed up or it's a flaw in the new ignition switch.


The headlights go out.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:32 am    Post subject: Re: No Spark...What'd I do? Reply with quote

Freebirdbeachbum wrote:
sb001 wrote:
And you are absolutely SURE the wire going from the ignition switch to your fuse box (should be coming in to the input side of #11 fuse on your 71) is solid black wire? That would be the #15 (ignition-powered in ON and START positions)

Just as a confirmation to see whether these two wires (the solid black #15 wire and the yellow/ black "X" wire) are mixed up: turn the key to the ON position, then turn the headlights on, then turn the key to the START position and see whether or not the headlights go out when you turn it to START.
If they don't, then either those two wires are mixed up or it's a flaw in the new ignition switch.


The headlights go out.


OK, then unless you somehow have the black 15 wire and the yellow/black "X" wire tied together coming off the same "X" terminal on the new ignition switch, the switch is faulty.
I wouldn't be surprised...
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Freebirdbeachbum
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:39 pm    Post subject: Re: No Spark...What'd I do? Reply with quote

sb001 wrote:
Freebirdbeachbum wrote:
sb001 wrote:
And you are absolutely SURE the wire going from the ignition switch to your fuse box (should be coming in to the input side of #11 fuse on your 71) is solid black wire? That would be the #15 (ignition-powered in ON and START positions)

Just as a confirmation to see whether these two wires (the solid black #15 wire and the yellow/ black "X" wire) are mixed up: turn the key to the ON position, then turn the headlights on, then turn the key to the START position and see whether or not the headlights go out when you turn it to START.
If they don't, then either those two wires are mixed up or it's a flaw in the new ignition switch.


The headlights go out.


OK, then unless you somehow have the black 15 wire and the yellow/black "X" wire tied together coming off the same "X" terminal on the new ignition switch, the switch is faulty.
I wouldn't be surprised...


Jbugs is sending me a replacement switch. Thanks for your help. I'll post the outcome when the new switch is installed.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:44 pm    Post subject: Re: No Spark...What'd I do? Reply with quote

My confidence in new aftermarket ignition switches has just gone down another level. Sad
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:34 am    Post subject: Re: No Spark...What'd I do? Reply with quote

ashman40 wrote:
My confidence in new aftermarket ignition switches has just gone down another level. Sad


It went a long time ago for me. I installed a 68 version a few years ago. Turned it. I heard a click and a puff of smoke came from it. NOS one works fine.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:04 am    Post subject: Re: No Spark...What'd I do? Reply with quote

It was, in fact, a bad ignition switch. I received the replacement today, installed it and she fired right up.

Thanks all.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2023 12:05 pm    Post subject: Re: No Spark...What'd I do? Reply with quote

Good to hear!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 2:44 pm    Post subject: Re: No Spark...What'd I do? Reply with quote

I celebrated prematurely and had to go rescue my wife today when it wouldnt crank again. Fortunately, push-starting was easy and it got home under it's own power.

There doesnt seem to be any "positions" when the key is turned and it doesnt snap back to the run position when turned to the start position. I had to disconnect the battery as it's now in the run position regardless, even when the key is removed. Are these JBugs ignition switches really that poor or am I doing something wrong?
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Last edited by Freebirdbeachbum on Mon Apr 17, 2023 3:47 pm; edited 2 times in total
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sb001
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 3:21 pm    Post subject: Re: No Spark...What'd I do? Reply with quote

Freebirdbeachbum wrote:
I celebrated prematurely and had to go rescue my wife today when it wouldnt crank again. Fortunately, push-starting was easy and it got home under it's own power.

Their doesnt seem to be any "positions" when the key is turned and it doesnt snap back to the run position when turned to the start position. I had to disconnect the battery as it now it the run position regardless, even when the key is removed. Are these JBugs ignition switches really that poor or am I doing something wrong?


Surprised
If it's not even snapping back from START to RUN positions it's another bad switch plain and simple. Did it ever snap back like it's supposed to or has it been that way since you installed it??
Obviously these switches they are selling are simply horrible. Demand your money back and shop elsewhere, Make them get the message. It would probably even be better to find a used original ignition switch in the classifieds here and have it rekeyed.
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Freebirdbeachbum
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2023 3:51 pm    Post subject: Re: No Spark...What'd I do? Reply with quote

It did work as it should for a short period, maybe a dozen or so times before it failed.
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