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flyboy705 Samba Member
Joined: April 10, 2012 Posts: 40 Location: Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:11 am Post subject: Vanagon brake regulator |
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Hi all,
I installed the brakes/disks from a VW MK IV R32 front and back.( I was running a Smallcar disk brake kit before for years, but that's going to my wife's vanagon) And I thought for years that I knew the brake system of a '86 Vanagon ! Ha - not so ! I came across the brake regulator installed under the right foot well. Not knowing what it was I checked my Bentley manual. They only call it the brake regulator.
What does it regulate, I like to ask ? Is it a proportioning valve between the front disk and rear drum brake ? Did they install it because the master cylinder is designed for a drum brake system and then they added the front disk ? Do I need it having the appropriate front and rear calipers ?
As always, all help and comments are appreciated |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6355 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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timichango Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012 Posts: 858 Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:23 am Post subject: Re: Vanagon brake regulator |
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Yep, it's a proportioning valve, if memory serves. I recall being paranoid about ours because it's old and rusty, and I've heard they can fail, and are NLA, so replacement is apparently a bit of a messaround.
See: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=319303 _________________ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Vroomhilde-San: Our 1991 Silver Vanagon Westy automatic + Subie EJ25 |
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burleymotorsports Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2005 Posts: 332
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timichango Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012 Posts: 858 Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon brake regulator |
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burleymotorsports wrote: |
Last I checked Van Cafe has new units for sale if anyone needs it. |
I just checked, and CIP1 and a few other vendors do too. Looks like they're no longer NLA.
Reckon I'll buy one for the parts box. _________________ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Vroomhilde-San: Our 1991 Silver Vanagon Westy automatic + Subie EJ25
Last edited by timichango on Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:17 am; edited 2 times in total |
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flyboy705 Samba Member
Joined: April 10, 2012 Posts: 40 Location: Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:49 am Post subject: Re: Vanagon brake regulator |
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Thanks for the responses !
Well, having the appropriate front and back calipers, I think I'll take a chance on the master cylinder working with me by not locking up the rear first before the front and will take the regulator out. I'm hoping to get better braking out of the rear.
We'll see what happens ! Stay tuned |
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burleymotorsports Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2005 Posts: 332
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Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:14 am Post subject: Re: Vanagon brake regulator |
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flyboy705 wrote: |
Thanks for the responses !
Well, having the appropriate front and back calipers, I think I'll take a chance on the master cylinder working with me by not locking up the rear first before the front and will take the regulator out. I'm hoping to get better braking out of the rear.
We'll see what happens ! Stay tuned |
We spent a lot of time figuring out the correct rear caliper piston diameter
that works well with the stock prop valve and stock or big fronts.
I strongly suggest having some sort of prop valve. Taking it out completely
in my experience was not such a good idea ,but it is your project , just trying to offer up some experience here.
We'll stay tuned _________________ Protect your investment !
Buy only genuine Burley Motorsports products
I will not see your PM.
Please email us directly through our website at http://www.burleymotorsports.net . Thank you.
Web: http://www.burleymotorsports.net
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/burleymotorsports
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70coupyel Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2006 Posts: 1657 Location: So.Cal
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Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon brake regulator |
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If you do not understand what the parts does in your brake system you are playing with fire. If you run that van is on a public road without that proportioning valve you will be putting everybody at risk on the street. What will happen is the rear end will lock up and come around on you in a blink of an eye.You will lose control. If you plan on going to a skid pad for testing and balancing your brake system before hitting the street then great.
There is a reason why that valve is there. _________________
TheAndante wrote: |
Saying that specs are different than dimensions doesn't make sense. Porsche specs/VW specs/engineering specs are nothing but a series of dimensions,sizes,percentages,measurements, etc. |
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=338946&highlight=
70 KG Coup
83 Westy Waterboxer |
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burleymotorsports Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2005 Posts: 332
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Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 2:38 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon brake regulator |
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70coupyel wrote: |
If you do not understand what the parts does in your brake system you are playing with fire. If you run that van is on a public road without that proportioning valve you will be putting everybody at risk on the street. What will happen is the rear end will lock up and come around on you in a blink of an eye.You will lose control. If you plan on going to a skid pad for testing and balancing your brake system before hitting the street then great.
There is a reason why that valve is there. |
This is good advise _________________ Protect your investment !
Buy only genuine Burley Motorsports products
I will not see your PM.
Please email us directly through our website at http://www.burleymotorsports.net . Thank you.
Web: http://www.burleymotorsports.net
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/burleymotorsports
Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/burleymotorsports |
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Snort Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2005 Posts: 1957 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Vanagon brake regulator |
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That valve is designed as an inertia-activated pressure release for the rear brakes under hard braking. There is a procedure in the Bentley describing how it is tested by tilting it 30 degrees which will simulate inertia moving the internal mechanism forward. Measuring 100 bar at the front calipers should result in 55-65 bar at the rear wheel cylinders. |
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Jake de Villiers Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007 Posts: 5911 Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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flyboy705 Samba Member
Joined: April 10, 2012 Posts: 40 Location: Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon brake regulator |
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Friends, thank you for the concerned messages.
Rest assured that I am not a brainless yahoo going for the Darwin awards. No, I'd rather read about participants me being alive and laughing. In my professional life it is all about assessing risk and how to mitigate it, about redundancy and safety ( No, I'm not in insurance). Let's face it, we all take risks and being part of this forum is looking for the mitigation of it. How many of you have different wheels that weren't original type certificate ? Or wheel spacers or brakes or engines or or or .... we all are willing to take risks comes to our Vanagons ! But the trick is to maintain a margin of safety.
So fully aware of what a prop valve does, with the relations of the master cylinder to different diameter of caliber pistons in mind, I took out the valve and conducted empirical and controlled tests. These were done on different surfaces except ice and snow of course with different conditions, speeds and application. No hunams, animals or property were harmed !
To report, the rear is much more responsive but not to the extent of dangerously locking up well prior the front. Part of that is the greater load due to my full camper, a 1.8T and 255/55ZR18 Michelin Pilot Super sports in the back. Speaking of margin of safety now, I am not comfortable with emergency brake applications on slippery surfaces or conditions comparable to that. Therefore I will re-install a proportioning valve. But not the original as I believe it is robbing too much brake pressure from the rear in my application. I'm thinking of getting an adjustable valve for trials.
However, I find one thought much more intriguing. As I have an ECU to run my 1.8T that had ABS programmed in it before ( which I deleted to rid the message) and I still have the ABS module and the modulator, why don't I try to install the entire ABS system with sensors on all wheels like it was installed on the donor vehicle ? The computer will not care if it is installed in R32, Jetta, Golf or Vanagon. All it cares is that the wheels are turning when I brake.
Any thoughts ? |
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timichango Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012 Posts: 858 Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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Posted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: Vanagon brake regulator |
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flyboy705 wrote: |
I'm thinking of getting an adjustable valve for trials |
Anyone have any idea what the stock valve's preset ratio is? I've wondered for a while now whether larger wheels plus upgraded brakes in the front have shifted the ideal braking ratio (with the fronts ostensibly delivering more stopping power than stock), and if that mightn't be improved with a tweaked ratio via an alternate prop. valve, fixed or adjustable.
flyboy705 wrote: |
why don't I try to install the entire ABS system with sensors on all wheels like it was installed on the donor vehicle ? The computer will not care if it is installed in R32, Jetta, Golf or Vanagon. All it cares is that the wheels are turning when I brake.
Any thoughts ? |
If you could get an aftermarket ABS retrofit to the vanagon platform, and confirmed working in an empirical way, I reckon you could make yourself some money offering it in kit form. I'd be all-ears, for sure. _________________ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Vroomhilde-San: Our 1991 Silver Vanagon Westy automatic + Subie EJ25 |
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