brazilian Ps&Cs are worth it |
yes they are good! |
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40% |
[ 2 ] |
bite the bullet and go german |
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60% |
[ 3 ] |
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Total Votes : 5 |
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LordHuron95 Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2021 Posts: 81 Location: California
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 8:43 pm Post subject: Brazilian Piston/Cylinders |
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Hello all, in the process of my Rebuild for my 1980 Vanagon and need to replace the Ps&Cs. I have tried searching the answer to my question with little to no luck.
In my search for a replacement set, I have ultimately found Chinese options for the cheapest, then brazilian followed by german. To my understanding, Brazil was manufacturing buses until the early 2000s, so I can see that the parts could be a reasonable option but wanted to see what the community consensus was. I'm steering clear of the chinese made ones and I'm sure the german ones are the best, but I'm also not rebuilding a porsche so not sure that's necessary. If this is a "bite the bullet and do it right once" so be it. Of course I'd like to save money when possible, but what must be done (and bought ) will be done. _________________ Never swing a mean loop. Never do dirt to man nor animal.
-1980 Vanagon Westy |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50336
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 9:29 pm Post subject: Re: brazilian Piston/Cylinders |
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I don't think Brazilian buses ever used Type 4 engines, so have no idea on quality and history of any Type 4 parts they might make/sell. |
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bsairhead Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2008 Posts: 3560 Location: viroqua wi.
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 9:48 pm Post subject: Re: brazilian Piston/Cylinders |
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"German the best" "Chinese the worst" Who knows. Made in Brueck. Made in America, The name of a town in China. Without a hardness tester and better machinist tools than i have who knows. |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 10:49 pm Post subject: Re: brazilian Piston/Cylinders |
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I think that the Mahle PC sets were Brazilian. Where in California are you? _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16959 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2023 10:53 pm Post subject: Re: brazilian Piston/Cylinders |
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Clatter might be able to offer an informed opinion _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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favguy Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2012 Posts: 235 Location: England
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 3:57 am Post subject: Re: brazilian Piston/Cylinders |
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Not sure about availability, but with regard to Brazilian components, there are two sorts to consider.
1, Genuine VW Brazilian, made by or directly for VW by an OEM supplier.
2, Aftermarket Brazilian.
If you can be certain you're buying parts that fall into category 1, they'll be good quality, generally not as good as German VW made, but they'll get the job done well. Category 2 is a crap shoot, as they say. Might just about be good enough, or could be absolutely unuseable rubbish, as with Chinese manufactured stuff.
Talking about engine parts, I'd only consider German or OEM VW Brazilian. |
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favguy Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2012 Posts: 235 Location: England
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 4:01 am Post subject: Re: brazilian Piston/Cylinders |
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Wildthings wrote: |
I don't think Brazilian buses ever used Type 4 engines, so have no idea on quality and history of any Type 4 parts they might make/sell. |
You are correct, they never used them, stuck with an evolution of the 1.6 Beetle engine until the end of aircooled in 2006, then they switched to water cooled for the last buses to 2013. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21510 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 4:03 am Post subject: Re: brazilian Piston/Cylinders |
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For Brazilian.....in my personal experience, it depends on when they were made.
Yes Brazil made type 4 cylinder sets
On the 1980s and into the 90s, you could buy very nice Brazilian made piston/cylinder sets. These were made by Cima, Mahle, Cofap....and I am trying to remember the history of whether and when Cima and Mahle might have been seperate companies and then merged to Cima/Mahle?
Anyway, the type 4 Cofap branded piston/cylinder sets from the 90s had Kolbenschmidt pistons and wrist pins and Cima or Mahle cylinders and were very high quality. I have two sets of 1.7L cylinders like this. Cofap was related to TRW of Brazil.
As we moved into the early 2000s it became all Cima/Mahle and quality dropped off a little....a little wider tolerances, more flashing etc.....but still very good.
Over the past 15 years or so I have HEARD poor opinions of the Brazilian quality from Mahle.
Likewise, originally the Chinese AA pistons and cylinders started out about 15 years ago with lots of problems and now all I hear is good things about everything but the ring sets. They worked hard at fixing the problems.
If you can find a mid to late 90s Cofap set that has been stored well.....it's a good deal.
Ray
Ray |
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Manfred58sc Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2009 Posts: 3382
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 8:26 am Post subject: Re: brazilian Piston/Cylinders |
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My last set of Brazilian Mahles were just fine. That was about 10 years ago, , ordered many sets before that, also w/o issue. Current quality?? Hope its not repackaged Chinese. _________________ Fat chick owner/operator |
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LordHuron95 Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2021 Posts: 81 Location: California
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tcoop1100 Samba Member
Joined: August 12, 2004 Posts: 194 Location: Hilo, Moku O Keawe, Moana Pakipika
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: brazilian Piston/Cylinders |
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Just so you know- aircooled.net is no longer doing business ...
https://vwparts.aircooled.net _________________ Aloha,
Tim
January '57 Sedan with April '64 40hp big bore |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7537 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Mon Dec 11, 2023 11:24 pm Post subject: Re: brazilian Piston/Cylinders |
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Those Mahles JBugs is selling ain’t likely German.
Sure do miss aircooled.net..
My understanding is that what they sell as Mahle are repackaged AA.
I’d heard that you can see a flat spot on the cylinder where the AA logo usually goes.
Supposedly the pistons are different, though?
Have a set of Mahles here in a box from 10 years ago i could take pics of.
But, dang, all the AAs i had are in motors now.
Anyone got a set of AAs they want to take some pics of?
My curiosity is up now..! _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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LordHuron95 Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2021 Posts: 81 Location: California
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 11:35 am Post subject: Re: brazilian Piston/Cylinders |
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Quote: |
But, dang, all the AAs i had are in motors now. |
So you stand by AA Pistons and Cylinders then? I was looking at them as a possibility. I have been combing through the Samba regarding them and getting both positive and negative opinions but maybe a little more positive? Especially as time goes on it seems they have corrected issues. The only one I'm not sure of is the wrist pin being wrong and having the head of the cylinder sitting too low. _________________ Never swing a mean loop. Never do dirt to man nor animal.
-1980 Vanagon Westy |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 11:45 am Post subject: Re: brazilian Piston/Cylinders |
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LordHuron95 wrote: |
Quote: |
But, dang, all the AAs i had are in motors now. |
So you stand by AA Pistons and Cylinders then? I was looking at them as a possibility. I have been combing through the Samba regarding them and getting both positive and negative opinions but maybe a little more positive? Especially as time goes on it seems they have corrected issues. The only one I'm not sure of is the wrist pin being wrong and having the head of the cylinder sitting too low. |
What is your budget on this engine, and what are you hoping for? There are lots of things that need to be done if you are looking for a "perfect" engine. I could sell the 300 mile Mahle set I have for about $400 but I won't ship them due to risk of damage. I shipped a Kolbenschmidt set in a masonite hard board box, with expanding foam and masonite dividers to hold the cylinders in place, in a heavy cardboard box with foam between it and the internal masonite box. USPS still managed to damage a cylinder. I had a case shipped to me from Germany a few years back and someone ran into it with a forklift. Someone else here shipped a case that was really well protected and UPS managed to drop it from about 10' high and damage a corner. If the supplier has lots of the item then they can send another but if it is one of a kind then teh seller and buyer are screwed. In the situation with the P&C set USPS said they would not pay because it was not their fault - they thought it was too well packed for it to have been something they could have done. You can't win with these people unless the seller has another one to send you and they price them to accommodate that type problem. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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LordHuron95 Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2021 Posts: 81 Location: California
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 11:59 am Post subject: Re: brazilian Piston/Cylinders |
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Quote: |
What is your budget on this engine, and what are you hoping for? |
One of my seats essentially disappeared so that's why I pulled the engine out and got that far, figured I might as well pull the engine apart too. As with us all, if I can save money I would like to, but I also understand "do it wrong twice or do it right once" and the money with that.
I haven't really set a budget, as I am already spending more than just fixing that valve seat. I would like to crack this engine open and fix everything I can/should while in here and not have to worry about it for years.
My goal is just a reliable engine. Not looking to add horses/heat or any special tuning. Just to get the engine to run like it rolled off the factory floor. _________________ Never swing a mean loop. Never do dirt to man nor animal.
-1980 Vanagon Westy |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50336
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: brazilian Piston/Cylinders |
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LordHuron95 wrote: |
Quote: |
What is your budget on this engine, and what are you hoping for? |
One of my seats essentially disappeared so that's why I pulled the engine out and got that far, figured I might as well pull the engine apart too. As with us all, if I can save money I would like to, but I also understand "do it wrong twice or do it right once" and the money with that.
I haven't really set a budget, as I am already spending more than just fixing that valve seat. I would like to crack this engine open and fix everything I can/should while in here and not have to worry about it for years.
My goal is just a reliable engine. Not looking to add horses/heat or any special tuning. Just to get the engine to run like it rolled off the factory floor. |
The Type 4 bottom end is pretty tough, you might consider just reringing the existing pistons without splitting the case, or spit the case was well and put in new bearing inserts.
I have about 50K miles on the ring and head work I did on the 1800 engine in my van for just a few hundred dollars out of pocket. |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2023 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: brazilian Piston/Cylinders |
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how many miles is on the engine case now? Is there any evidence a piston and valve seat interacted - dings, nicks, etc..
As for heads, ouch. The good ones are up now like $3800 a set from the type 4 store. I don't think Len is selling them directly now but you could call him and ask him. If so you can get a good set that are upgraded but don't have as much porting etc., for less.
Hoffman Machine (HAM) in GA https://newsite.hamheads.com/home-2/ _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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LordHuron95 Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2021 Posts: 81 Location: California
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Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2023 1:54 am Post subject: Re: Brazilian Piston/Cylinders |
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Well, my case is already split. I had to get one head off and figured I might as well go all the way, which was good. Metal flakes and a messed up bearing wouldve only gotten worse.
As for the existing Ps&Cs. I forget the numbering, but if I remember right, rear passenger cylinder had a vertical groove you could run your nail on. Front driver piston looked like you took your nail and dug a couple chunks out the side. All four cylinders have no cross hatching. In fact they're completely smooth. Theres evedice someone has pulled the engine before, but not torn it down all the way.
I'd need to go look but I think it's at like 170K _________________ Never swing a mean loop. Never do dirt to man nor animal.
-1980 Vanagon Westy |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50336
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Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2023 9:01 am Post subject: Re: Brazilian Piston/Cylinders |
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If it's never been fully rebuilt before then it will likely have severe cylinder wall wear as the oils available back then didn't give much more protection than peanut oil would have. In contrast, an engine built after 1990 might have almost no wear to the P&Cs.
The 1800 that I rebuilt circa 1990 that was in my Bay for 250K+/- miles had zero taper and there was still visible crosshatching where the top ring reached in the top of the cylinder. In contrast, an old 1800 from a Type 4 car I had lying around that had never been apart had 0.015" of cylinder wall taper.
Last edited by Wildthings on Wed Dec 13, 2023 1:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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LordHuron95 Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2021 Posts: 81 Location: California
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Posted: Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Brazilian Piston/Cylinders |
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Yeah my very knowledgeable CHEVY friend, said he thought they looked pretty worn. Taken with a grain of salt as he admits, he doesn't know VWs or aircooled engines the same, but at that point of "maybe they could be machined, but if you're this far in a tear down, why not replace them instead?" especially with the mechanical damage on the one piston and cylinder. _________________ Never swing a mean loop. Never do dirt to man nor animal.
-1980 Vanagon Westy |
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