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Dlglobal1 Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2013 Posts: 350 Location: Denmark
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:15 pm Post subject: Machine shop problem need advice |
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I have some issues with machine work done and I need some advise on options. I have an original 1600 from a type 3 (numbers matching) so its the Orignal mag case.
I asked for the following work to be done via a PM here, written instructions sent with the motor and parts, and confirmed verbally over the phone:
Drill, tap and Install 12mmx8mm case savers (CB Perf case savers delivered with the motor)
Remove oil galley plugs, tap and check figment, but do not instal as I will clean the case prior to assembly
Balance rotating assembly crank, flywheel and pressure plate sent with all gears and bolts.
Remove cam gear and install on new CB 2280
A week ago, When I picked up the motor I was informed the case was dropped and one of the sled tin mounting ears was broken off. I saw that the stud holes were drilled and tapped, but case savers were not installed. I was told that the case had been decked 0.40mm even though I did not ask for this (deck was checked prior and was ok.). I was told the crank was in balance and didn't need anything, but the flywheel and PP needed some work.
I collected my items and left.
Upon closer inspection (done in my shop the next day) I found the following:
Case savers were tapped using a different thread pitch than the case savers and do not fit the case
Oil gallery plugs appear to be drilled and tapped to deep as I can see intrusion into galleries and the pressure relief bores. They also appear to not have been deburred...and the gallery plugs are a very loose fit (I know NPT is a conical thread, but these don't seem to get tighter)
The case was not decked using the crank axis. According to the guy who did this "It was leveled in the machine and ground down 0.40mm"
There is a gouge in the deck surface of #4
The crank shows scoring across the #4 bearing surface, I assume this if from either installing or removing the gears dry) (the crank was polished prior to delivery and was perfect, no marks on any journal)
When balancing the FW and PP he did not use the original index marks...(the assembly was delivered to him in its correct orientation) not sure if this matters or not.
So, after a few messages back and forth it's clear he isn't going to rectify anything even though he admitted he may have used the wrong tap on the case savers. So conversation over.
Therefore I need advise on what options I have with the case.
Case savers: it's already decked so can I have the threads re cut and savers installed? Will it have to now be drilled and tapped to 14mm OD? Then I guess it gets decked again to flush everything and fix the gouge in #4.
Oil galleries: if they are too deep what are my options?
The broken sled mount is fixable with some JB weld I guess.
The balance work will be re-checked.
Any words of of advice will be greatly appreciated. _________________ Cheers, David
1969 Bug
1972 Bug
1968 Mercedes 230 "Heckflosse"
1970 Type 3 Fastback 1600 TA L60D |
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theDrew Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2011 Posts: 1155 Location: Camas, WA
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wcfvw69 Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004 Posts: 13382 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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If It was me, I'd take the case back down there and show him all his poor work that has pretty much ruined your case. Did you pay this shop for this poor work? I'd at least want my money back and TELL that guy he owes you at least 1/2 the cost of a new case.
I don't know how your legal system works there but in the USA, you could easily take him to small claims court to get your money back and be reimbursed towards purchasing a new case.
You should find a well respected new machine shop that is very familiar with VW cases and have them access that case to see if it can be repaired or not. Personally, it sounds like you'd be better off getting a new one. _________________ Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
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Juanito84 Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2012 Posts: 2436 Location: Colorado Mountains
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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Dlglobal1 wrote: |
Case savers: it's already decked so can I have the threads re cut and savers installed? Will it have to now be drilled and tapped to 14mm OD? |
I once messed up a 14mm threaded case hole. So I had to make my own 16mm case saver. I wrote about it and got the idea to fix it myself in the Seal/lock head studs in case?? thread. Of course in your case all you need to do is buy 14mm case savers. You can do it yourself Magnesium is almost too easy to machine. The tricky part is getting them straight. That's what I found hard. I had actually tapped the case crooked. But fortunately since I was making my own case saver, I had accidentally tapped it crooked as well. In the end, the two wrong angles actually were straight!
Dlglobal1 wrote: |
Oil galleries: if they are too deep what are my options? |
I had the same problem with one I tapped too deep. I wrote about it in the Oil galley plug leak thread. This was one of the solutions:
modok wrote: |
If that's the case I'd wire brush the plug, clean the threads, and goop it up with permatex/loctite green sleeve retainer, OR 518 sealant and install it at the depth you want. |
Dlglobal1 wrote: |
The balance work will be re-checked. |
FYI. I found out that sometimes the pressure plate doesn't fit tight into the flywheel. Maybe I just have a cheap pressure plate. Anyhow, that's got to be fixed before it can be balanced. Otherwise the pressure plate will slide around and mess up the balance. This was in the thread Balancing flywheel problem!?. _________________ If a water cooled engine cools its water with air, isn't it just an overcomplicated air cooled engine? |
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Dlglobal1 Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2013 Posts: 350 Location: Denmark
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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Just to clarify, no payment was made. I discussed the issues with they guy and it's clear he isn't going to make it right. So I'm just looking for options that can will allow me to use the case if possible. _________________ Cheers, David
1969 Bug
1972 Bug
1968 Mercedes 230 "Heckflosse"
1970 Type 3 Fastback 1600 TA L60D |
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theKbStockpiler Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2012 Posts: 2316 Location: Rust Belt
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: |
The broken sled mount is fixable with some JB weld I guess. |
The sled mount can be welded/built up and retapped/threaded. Iv'e had it done before.[/quote] _________________ My beetle is not competing with your beetle. I have the yellow beetle in my town. There is a red one, a green one ......
Use all safety devices including a mask.
Last edited by theKbStockpiler on Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jfats808 Samba Member
Joined: December 10, 2007 Posts: 5022 Location: oahu hawaii
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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If you payed him and took the parts, you may have already given implied acceptance.
Of all the machine work, the tapping past the relief bores is ok as long as:
1. the plug can be made snug with lock tote
2. The plug doesn't intrude over the passage of the relief bore.
Emails and or texts are always best to convey communication because it's recordable evidence. I hope that you can salvage the case saver portion because that's a go- no go issue.
You have learned a hard lesson. It sucks, i feel for you as a fellow sambian.
Regarding the decking, as long as the machinist and the machine is accurate all the time, the deck height "should" be equal to each other. Worst case, you'll have to offset shims to level your piston deck heights.
Otherwise contact Brothers, voice problems and solutions, and eat the additional shopping and machining costs. Sorry man. _________________ 2276 IDA's 86C 11-1 DD !
2017 48 Trijet DRLA's W125
Rockstar Suzuki wrote: |
You might as well put 10 year build in your bullshit sig, as it will NEVER run. Also your a dick |
You can always learn something new, even from a fool.
Check your oil levels routinely! |
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Dlglobal1 Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2013 Posts: 350 Location: Denmark
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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jfats808 wrote: |
If you payed him and took the parts, you may have already given implied acceptance.
Of all the machine work, the tapping past the relief bores is ok as long as:
1. the plug can be made snug with lock tote
2. The plug doesn't intrude over the passage of the relief bore.
Emails and or texts are always best to convey communication because it's recordable evidence. I hope that you can salvage the case saver portion because that's a go- no go issue.
You have learned a hard lesson. It sucks, i feel for you as a fellow sambian.
Regarding the decking, as long as the machinist and the machine is accurate all the time, the deck height "should" be equal to each other. Worst case, you'll have to offset shims to level your piston deck heights.
Otherwise contact Brothers, voice problems and solutions, and eat the additional shopping and machining costs. Sorry man. |
Thanks gives me some hope. No payment was made.
I went with 12mm OD case savers so I'd have an option to go to 14 if needed. The case is going to Brothers. Should have done that to begin with....live and learn. _________________ Cheers, David
1969 Bug
1972 Bug
1968 Mercedes 230 "Heckflosse"
1970 Type 3 Fastback 1600 TA L60D |
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theDrew Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2011 Posts: 1155 Location: Camas, WA
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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Don't feel bad. I used a non vw shop once trying to avoid shipping....and only once. Now I'll ship Brothers if any work is needed. Same with head work. Ship em to a trusted shop!
Live and learn, as you said. _________________ Turbo 2276 MS3X build http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=673125
1985 Vanagon Campmobile w/ 2005 EJ25 |
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esde Samba Member
Joined: October 20, 2007 Posts: 5927 Location: central rust belt
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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theDrew wrote: |
Don't feel bad. I used a non vw shop once trying to avoid shipping....and only once. |
I just had a samba member correct some poor work, done by a well paid local shop. They have no experience with VW stuff, and just didn't "get it". All I had to do was ship the crank and flywheel halfway across the US to have it fixed correctly.
If it was only money, it would be one thing. But lately finding parts that are even worth working on is a challenge. If someone screwed up a case that was on it's first line bore or thrust cut I'd be furious. Especially a type 3 case! |
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Dlglobal1 Samba Member
Joined: March 25, 2013 Posts: 350 Location: Denmark
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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esde wrote: |
theDrew wrote: |
Don't feel bad. I used a non vw shop once trying to avoid shipping....and only once. |
I just had a samba member correct some poor work, done by a well paid local shop. They have no experience with VW stuff, and just didn't "get it". All I had to do was ship the crank and flywheel halfway across the US to have it fixed correctly.
If it was only money, it would be one thing. But lately finding parts that are even worth working on is a challenge. If someone screwed up a case that was on it's first line bore or thrust cut I'd be furious. Especially a type 3 case! |
Here is the kicker: the person that did this is supposedly an experienced vw engine builder, claims association with a very well respected shop here, and is regular contributor with generally sound advice here on this forum. So I felt confident my parts were in good hands...he even assured me of that in writing. My case was untouched and specked out well within factory tolerances prior to delivery to him. Case savers, galley plugs...fairly routine as is balancing for an experienced builder. I'm pretty bummed out by the whole thing. _________________ Cheers, David
1969 Bug
1972 Bug
1968 Mercedes 230 "Heckflosse"
1970 Type 3 Fastback 1600 TA L60D |
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Dan Ruddock Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012 Posts: 3573 Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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My problem with shops is them not doing it how I wanted it. Gave my case to a shop and ask to have it decked 1mm to get my deck where I wanted and they made the step bore 5mm deeper than need. Did not ask them to do anything to the bore
Think they know better than the custumer.
If they want to do something extra or different call me and ask first. Once the meterial is gone it's gone. Sometime I think these guy's love to watch chips fly.
What do I have to make a list of all the things not to do???? Thou shalt not.
Reminds me of a lot of the O.T. Bible story's
Dan |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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always check with atleast 5 peoplke that know what there looking at who have had work done to see if the shop in question can do what you want. then check some more. it sounds to me like they owe you a new case. |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33875 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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Please post feedback so others can consider his work in light of your negative experience. It's not bashing, it's looking our for fellow Samba members. Just post facts, as above. Expect he might post his version in response. |
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highroller Samba Member
Joined: December 11, 2011 Posts: 225 Location: High Rolls, NM
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Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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Small claims court cost is usually less than $200. Can't bring a lawyer, just you and the shop owner, and the judge. |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33875 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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highroller wrote: |
Small claims court cost is usually less than $200. Can't bring a lawyer, just you and the shop owner, and the judge. |
Agreed ($75 in Cali) but he's not in the US. Although the work was done here, I'm not sure whether you have to be a resident to use it. |
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Hnoroian Samba Member
Joined: October 27, 2013 Posts: 535 Location: Bakersfield
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Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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Are you sure you received "your" original case back and not someone else's? _________________ Stupid people do stupid things. |
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Dr OnHolliday Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2012 Posts: 1215 Location: was Escondido now San Berdoo
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Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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KTPhil wrote: |
highroller wrote: |
Small claims court cost is usually less than $200. Can't bring a lawyer, just you and the shop owner, and the judge. |
Agreed ($75 in Cali) but he's not in the US. Although the work was done here, I'm not sure whether you have to be a resident to use it. |
?? CA limit is $7500. The work had to be contracted in, done in, or some other CA "hook". _________________ 1965 Type 1 sunroof Baja / about 70k miles on self-rebuilt '74 1600 and counting / SP heads and aftermarket valve keepers / non-doghouse shroud with external cooler and filter / 1.5 qt extended sump / Weber 32/36 DFAV progressive carb / 009 dist with Pertronix / 1.25 ratio rockers and ball adjusters / 1.5" stainless steel J-pipes and carbon steel baja exhaust |
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vwinnovator Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005 Posts: 1555 Location: Still doing it in the back of your VW
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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:39 am Post subject: |
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If you can't get that case right, PM me. I have a few good type 3 cases avail. |
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33875 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:52 am Post subject: |
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Dr OnHolliday wrote: |
KTPhil wrote: |
highroller wrote: |
Small claims court cost is usually less than $200. Can't bring a lawyer, just you and the shop owner, and the judge. |
Agreed ($75 in Cali) but he's not in the US. Although the work was done here, I'm not sure whether you have to be a resident to use it. |
?? CA limit is $7500. |
We're talking filing fee, not recovery limit. The latter is now $10K in Cali. |
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