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Machine shop problem need advice
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Dlglobal1
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:15 pm    Post subject: Machine shop problem need advice Reply with quote

I have some issues with machine work done and I need some advise on options. I have an original 1600 from a type 3 (numbers matching) so its the Orignal mag case.

I asked for the following work to be done via a PM here, written instructions sent with the motor and parts, and confirmed verbally over the phone:

Drill, tap and Install 12mmx8mm case savers (CB Perf case savers delivered with the motor)
Remove oil galley plugs, tap and check figment, but do not instal as I will clean the case prior to assembly
Balance rotating assembly crank, flywheel and pressure plate sent with all gears and bolts.
Remove cam gear and install on new CB 2280

A week ago, When I picked up the motor I was informed the case was dropped and one of the sled tin mounting ears was broken off. I saw that the stud holes were drilled and tapped, but case savers were not installed. I was told that the case had been decked 0.40mm even though I did not ask for this (deck was checked prior and was ok.). I was told the crank was in balance and didn't need anything, but the flywheel and PP needed some work.

I collected my items and left.

Upon closer inspection (done in my shop the next day) I found the following:
Case savers were tapped using a different thread pitch than the case savers and do not fit the case
Oil gallery plugs appear to be drilled and tapped to deep as I can see intrusion into galleries and the pressure relief bores. They also appear to not have been deburred...and the gallery plugs are a very loose fit (I know NPT is a conical thread, but these don't seem to get tighter)
The case was not decked using the crank axis. According to the guy who did this "It was leveled in the machine and ground down 0.40mm"
There is a gouge in the deck surface of #4
The crank shows scoring across the #4 bearing surface, I assume this if from either installing or removing the gears dry) (the crank was polished prior to delivery and was perfect, no marks on any journal)
When balancing the FW and PP he did not use the original index marks...(the assembly was delivered to him in its correct orientation) not sure if this matters or not.

So, after a few messages back and forth it's clear he isn't going to rectify anything even though he admitted he may have used the wrong tap on the case savers. So conversation over.

Therefore I need advise on what options I have with the case.

Case savers: it's already decked so can I have the threads re cut and savers installed? Will it have to now be drilled and tapped to 14mm OD? Then I guess it gets decked again to flush everything and fix the gouge in #4.

Oil galleries: if they are too deep what are my options?

The broken sled mount is fixable with some JB weld I guess.

The balance work will be re-checked.

Any words of of advice will be greatly appreciated.
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theDrew
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ouch. that's frustrating......I hope you didn't pay him.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If It was me, I'd take the case back down there and show him all his poor work that has pretty much ruined your case. Did you pay this shop for this poor work? I'd at least want my money back and TELL that guy he owes you at least 1/2 the cost of a new case.

I don't know how your legal system works there but in the USA, you could easily take him to small claims court to get your money back and be reimbursed towards purchasing a new case.

You should find a well respected new machine shop that is very familiar with VW cases and have them access that case to see if it can be repaired or not. Personally, it sounds like you'd be better off getting a new one.
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Juanito84
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Blue Bug
Dlglobal1 wrote:
Case savers: it's already decked so can I have the threads re cut and savers installed? Will it have to now be drilled and tapped to 14mm OD?


I once messed up a 14mm threaded case hole. So I had to make my own 16mm case saver. I wrote about it and got the idea to fix it myself in the Seal/lock head studs in case?? thread. Of course in your case all you need to do is buy 14mm case savers. You can do it yourself Magnesium is almost too easy to machine. The tricky part is getting them straight. That's what I found hard. I had actually tapped the case crooked. But fortunately since I was making my own case saver, I had accidentally tapped it crooked as well. In the end, the two wrong angles actually were straight!

Orange Bus Yellow 181
Dlglobal1 wrote:
Oil galleries: if they are too deep what are my options?


I had the same problem with one I tapped too deep. I wrote about it in the Oil galley plug leak thread. This was one of the solutions:

modok wrote:
If that's the case I'd wire brush the plug, clean the threads, and goop it up with permatex/loctite green sleeve retainer, OR 518 sealant and install it at the depth you want.


Red Bus Green Bug Yellow 181
Dlglobal1 wrote:
The balance work will be re-checked.


FYI. I found out that sometimes the pressure plate doesn't fit tight into the flywheel. Maybe I just have a cheap pressure plate. Anyhow, that's got to be fixed before it can be balanced. Otherwise the pressure plate will slide around and mess up the balance. This was in the thread Balancing flywheel problem!?.
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Dlglobal1
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to clarify, no payment was made. I discussed the issues with they guy and it's clear he isn't going to make it right. So I'm just looking for options that can will allow me to use the case if possible.
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theKbStockpiler
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The broken sled mount is fixable with some JB weld I guess.
The sled mount can be welded/built up and retapped/threaded. Iv'e had it done before.[/quote]
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Last edited by theKbStockpiler on Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jfats808
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you payed him and took the parts, you may have already given implied acceptance.
Of all the machine work, the tapping past the relief bores is ok as long as:
1. the plug can be made snug with lock tote
2. The plug doesn't intrude over the passage of the relief bore.

Emails and or texts are always best to convey communication because it's recordable evidence. I hope that you can salvage the case saver portion because that's a go- no go issue.
You have learned a hard lesson. It sucks, i feel for you as a fellow sambian.

Regarding the decking, as long as the machinist and the machine is accurate all the time, the deck height "should" be equal to each other. Worst case, you'll have to offset shims to level your piston deck heights.

Otherwise contact Brothers, voice problems and solutions, and eat the additional shopping and machining costs. Sorry man.
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Dlglobal1
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jfats808 wrote:
If you payed him and took the parts, you may have already given implied acceptance.
Of all the machine work, the tapping past the relief bores is ok as long as:
1. the plug can be made snug with lock tote
2. The plug doesn't intrude over the passage of the relief bore.

Emails and or texts are always best to convey communication because it's recordable evidence. I hope that you can salvage the case saver portion because that's a go- no go issue.
You have learned a hard lesson. It sucks, i feel for you as a fellow sambian.

Regarding the decking, as long as the machinist and the machine is accurate all the time, the deck height "should" be equal to each other. Worst case, you'll have to offset shims to level your piston deck heights.

Otherwise contact Brothers, voice problems and solutions, and eat the additional shopping and machining costs. Sorry man.


Thanks gives me some hope. No payment was made.
I went with 12mm OD case savers so I'd have an option to go to 14 if needed. The case is going to Brothers. Should have done that to begin with....live and learn.
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theDrew
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't feel bad. I used a non vw shop once trying to avoid shipping....and only once. Now I'll ship Brothers if any work is needed. Same with head work. Ship em to a trusted shop!

Live and learn, as you said.
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esde
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theDrew wrote:
Don't feel bad. I used a non vw shop once trying to avoid shipping....and only once.

I just had a samba member correct some poor work, done by a well paid local shop. They have no experience with VW stuff, and just didn't "get it". All I had to do was ship the crank and flywheel halfway across the US to have it fixed correctly.
If it was only money, it would be one thing. But lately finding parts that are even worth working on is a challenge. If someone screwed up a case that was on it's first line bore or thrust cut I'd be furious. Especially a type 3 case!
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Dlglobal1
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

esde wrote:
theDrew wrote:
Don't feel bad. I used a non vw shop once trying to avoid shipping....and only once.

I just had a samba member correct some poor work, done by a well paid local shop. They have no experience with VW stuff, and just didn't "get it". All I had to do was ship the crank and flywheel halfway across the US to have it fixed correctly.
If it was only money, it would be one thing. But lately finding parts that are even worth working on is a challenge. If someone screwed up a case that was on it's first line bore or thrust cut I'd be furious. Especially a type 3 case!


Here is the kicker: the person that did this is supposedly an experienced vw engine builder, claims association with a very well respected shop here, and is regular contributor with generally sound advice here on this forum. So I felt confident my parts were in good hands...he even assured me of that in writing. My case was untouched and specked out well within factory tolerances prior to delivery to him. Case savers, galley plugs...fairly routine as is balancing for an experienced builder. I'm pretty bummed out by the whole thing.
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Dan Ruddock
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My problem with shops is them not doing it how I wanted it. Gave my case to a shop and ask to have it decked 1mm to get my deck where I wanted and they made the step bore 5mm deeper than need. Did not ask them to do anything to the bore Shocked

Think they know better than the custumer.

If they want to do something extra or different call me and ask first. Once the meterial is gone it's gone. Sometime I think these guy's love to watch chips fly.

What do I have to make a list of all the things not to do???? Thou shalt not.

Reminds me of a lot of the O.T. Bible story's

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mark tucker
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

always check with atleast 5 peoplke that know what there looking at who have had work done to see if the shop in question can do what you want. then check some more. it sounds to me like they owe you a new case. Shocked
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KTPhil Premium Member
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please post feedback so others can consider his work in light of your negative experience. It's not bashing, it's looking our for fellow Samba members. Just post facts, as above. Expect he might post his version in response.
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highroller
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Small claims court cost is usually less than $200. Can't bring a lawyer, just you and the shop owner, and the judge.
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KTPhil Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

highroller wrote:
Small claims court cost is usually less than $200. Can't bring a lawyer, just you and the shop owner, and the judge.


Agreed ($75 in Cali) but he's not in the US. Although the work was done here, I'm not sure whether you have to be a resident to use it.
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Hnoroian
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you sure you received "your" original case back and not someone else's?
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Dr OnHolliday
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
highroller wrote:
Small claims court cost is usually less than $200. Can't bring a lawyer, just you and the shop owner, and the judge.


Agreed ($75 in Cali) but he's not in the US. Although the work was done here, I'm not sure whether you have to be a resident to use it.


?? CA limit is $7500. The work had to be contracted in, done in, or some other CA "hook".
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vwinnovator
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you can't get that case right, PM me. I have a few good type 3 cases avail.
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KTPhil Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr OnHolliday wrote:
KTPhil wrote:
highroller wrote:
Small claims court cost is usually less than $200. Can't bring a lawyer, just you and the shop owner, and the judge.


Agreed ($75 in Cali) but he's not in the US. Although the work was done here, I'm not sure whether you have to be a resident to use it.


?? CA limit is $7500.


We're talking filing fee, not recovery limit. The latter is now $10K in Cali.
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