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What to Build? (first time engine build advice needed)
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KingCarGuyZ
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:41 am    Post subject: What to Build? (first time engine build advice needed) Reply with quote

Ok, so my old 1400 in my buggy is coming due for a re-fresh (it’s easily twice as old as I am and has its fair share of problems) and I can’t decide what to Build or if I should build it. I have never built an engine before, I understand the basic idea of cranks and cam’s. And I’m pretty good at making an engine run, but when we get into matching cylinder heads to the cam or compression ratio, I get lost very quickly.

Obviously I want more power, I am realizing the more I read that the difference in cost between building a 1776 and a 2110 is not that much (unless I'm missing something) so why not go bigger?

This engine will be going in my dune buggy, so it's not daily driven, the buggy sees 95% street duty, and very very little to no HWY. ideally I would like something with a good amount of punch. I have some friends with 1776's and 1932's and I would like to be able to keep up with them and have fun on the street. I'm thinking of aiming for more low down torque/mid-range power. seems more usable. I don't wan't to have to run race gas. but down here in TX we have 93 readily available, and I have no qualms running premium (I don't think I have ever met a VW engine that likes anything less than 90)

Heat is a concern down here, she will be run on 90* days regularly, I can do external oil coolers or what not, but I don't want to build something that is going to constantly be giving me problems with heat.

Im kinda fond of my "boom tubes" or dune buggy style exhaust, though I have heard a 4 into 1 might be better for power.

Biggest limitation is budget, I'm kinda just pricing out right now, but im a poor HS kid, so money isn't exactly pouring out of me.

keeping the budget in mind, I don't want to have to go built trans or axles, that gets expensive fast. I have heard these trans are pretty tough, but I don't want to make so much power that it starts to become a concern. (not sure where that number is)

longevity is not a major concern, I don't want a "fragile as glass" motor, but even if you tare it down even 100,000 miles, the is well over 10 years driving for me.

Im sure I'm forgetting something, id love any opinions or knowledge ya'll are willing to share. what did y'all build in HS, what would you do diff? ill try and answer any questions I can to the best of my ability, but when we get into the more theoretical stuff, I get lost.
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Lingwendil
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:55 am    Post subject: Re: What to Build? (first time engine build advice needed) Reply with quote

A buggy doesn't need much, an 1835 with the thickwall cylinders (or even the regular ones) would be a great choice in a buggy, as would a 1915 since you're in the open air you'll have a bit more cooling than in an enclosed sedan engine bay.

Do you want stroke? A good 1915 set up correctly will make a good deal of power and be reliable in such a light car. No stroke or clearancing for big crank needed, and it'll go together like stock.

What type of carbs do you want to run? I wouldn't bother going big unless you will run duals of some sort.

The classic 1915 with dual 40 webers set up right with higher compression to take advantage of higher octane gas would absolutely rip in a buggy if you pay attention to the details and choose a decent cam and heads. Steve Tims stage 1 heads, Web 163, good 1 1/2" extractor exhaust, etc. Biggest I've personally built was an 1835 with the same setup (different heads though) and it was a killer little engine with loads of usable power and torque.

Look at posts by Alstrup and brian_e, they have lots of combos with good details that would be good choices as a starting point.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:31 am    Post subject: Re: What to Build? (first time engine build advice needed) Reply with quote

Ok, so my old 1400????

what is the case # that will give more info on what can and can't be done to it.
has it got single port or duel port heads
What type of buggy tube chassis or fiberglass VW pan ?
heat will not be a problem because the motor is open and will get good airflow.
is your 95% street duty, just running to the store and sunday drives and just out for fun or street burning from stoplight to stoplight.
what kind of manners due you want? like a stock car but with more punch or something that doesn't start pulling tell it hits 3500 RPM,
cam, carb and heads will dictate that. set out your plan and set aside your budget $$$.
remember that if you plan on changing your RPM band up it will involve changing out parts and one part will lead to another part to complement that part.
like Lingwendil said a 1835... 92MM P+C's will make a very fun straet motor with good manners.

nothing wrong with your "boom tubes" a 4 to 1 is not needed.
any C+P over 88MM will require head and case machining.

the bad thing, it is just like drugs once you start, it takes a strong will not to go for more.
good luck
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KingCarGuyZ
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 10:32 am    Post subject: Re: What to Build? (first time engine build advice needed) Reply with quote

thanks for the response!, the buggy is pretty light, so less cc makes since. the 1400 I run now easily beat my buddies 1600 in a 66 VW

either 1835 or 1915 and change sounds good to me, I like strokers, the only one's I have driven is like a 383V8, made absolutely fabulous torque and the sound kinda cool - the opposition to this being I have never built a motor and "going together like stock" sounds like a very good idea, would the "big bore" 1915/1835 buy me the low down/mid-range grunt, or are they going to want to spin up higher cause of the sort stroke?

as far a carb's, I was figuring I would have to go duals anyway, at least to begin to make use of the extra cc's my current engine has a stock single, I was thinking of either going dual barrel duals or a single dual barrel , whatever get's more recommendations.

what does "thick wall" buy you? longevity, cooling?

so for a 1835 or a 1915 I wouldn't have to clearance for a bigger crank? would I have to do anything clearance for the Jug's?

I'll get to searching, this search engine is a little confusing but I'm sure I'll get it in a bit.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: What to Build? (first time engine build advice needed) Reply with quote

halfassedmotorworks,

1400 SP, I’ll grab the case number in a bit, it was built pre 94 (that when my dad bought the car) and has been abused sense, parked in 04, revived with fuel system and ignition in 2018. Leaks oil liberally from RMS, Heads and pushrod tubes, burns some oil. Stock carberation, still has heat crossover. I believe it’s just a bored over 1200, but don’t know for sure. Oh and the cooling tin is all screwed up and held together with zip-ties, but she doesn’t overheat so....

Car is 66 (we think) pan, shortened about 14” just before the rear wheels, custom fiberglass “Manx style” body. I’ll post a picture when I get the case #.

As far as driving style, currently I am whipping this little engine for all it’s worth to achieve 45, launching from lights, speed shifting. Basically drive it like you stole it. I’d like to say that would get better with a new engine, but TBH I will still drive the wheels off it after break in. I “think” I want more low down torque as apposed to High redline HP, but TBH IDK, very open to persuasion on that point.
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Lingwendil
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: What to Build? (first time engine build advice needed) Reply with quote

You need to be very careful asking for advice on thesamba, as the general consensus will always ballon the scope of your project into a 2300cc monster that will eat v8s for breakfast but require very expensive supporting equipment and running gear.

Draw a line in the sand. I say if you want something easy to build, no clearancing or custom cylinder shims needed, stick with stock 69mm stroke. For a nice powerful engine the usual stock stroke choices are the big three of the 1776, 1835, 1915. 1776 is good, they can make good power but for a buggy there are nearly no downsides to going bigger, and the cost is the same. 1835 uses the same case machining as the 1776, but ends up with thinner cylinder walls that in some instances may not give as long of a life pushing a heavy car. 1915 is a larger case hole machined in. Thats where the thickwall 92mm cylinder 1835 shines- the cylinders are the same size at the case as the 1776, but the head size is the same as the cylinders used on the 94mm cylinders used in the 1915. This will in theory give you a cooler running cylinder and better longevity due to more material to keep it's shape and dissipate heat. Hard to beat, and the 92/94 piston machinework will usually cost about the same overall. A 1915 will work too, but will be more rev-happy unless you build it a bit on the limited side and with a shorter duration cam, which at that point you may as well build an 1835.

Personally, if I had a buggy or kit car in my garage right now that needed an engine, I would do the 1835 without hesitation. It's a great in between size with lots of overall potential to be strong and reliable without many compromises. I almost went with one instead of 1776 on my current build for my super beetle but for many reasons stuck to the 1776, also simply because it may be a commuter car in summer bay area traffic.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:40 am    Post subject: Re: What to Build? (first time engine build advice needed) Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Stand code looks like: 5737782 with WA to the bottom left of it

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There is a N or Z beneath the distributor
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Some general pictures, she is running a pertronix SVDA distributor with electronic ignition, and the new fuel pump is leaking on me (not into the oil thank god)
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:47 am    Post subject: Re: What to Build? (first time engine build advice needed) Reply with quote

You will notice a difference in your Buggy by taking off the dual exhaust and adding a cheap 4 into 1 header. Throw that clear distributor cap in the trash, they are pure junk.

Build the 1915cc. The exposed engine in a Dunebuggy will run cooler then the enclosed engine in a Bug.

1915cc, CB Panchito heads, Engle W-120 cam & 1.25 rockers, Dual 40 IDF's with 32mm venturies, 9.0 CR, 1 1/2" exhaust.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:49 am    Post subject: Re: What to Build? (first time engine build advice needed) Reply with quote

I gotta figure out how to use the “reply” function on this forum.

Lingwindel,

2300 is deffinetly waaaay overkill, So the 1776 requires the same machining as a “thin wall” 1835?

And then a “thick wall” 1835 is the same as a 1915, the thick wall and the 1776 cool better, but less power. (Cooling might not be as much a concern because dune buggy?)

so mind as well go either thin 1835 or 1915? Then a “stock” 69mm crank (do I need a counterweighted one?) these engines will want to rev higher and this produce more HP and less torque, other than a fuel pump and maybe a clutch I shouldn’t need any supporting mods?

I still need to go do those searches for head/cam combos
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:55 am    Post subject: Re: What to Build? (first time engine build advice needed) Reply with quote

where do you get the 1400cc from
VW only made 1100 a rare motor , 1200cc 77mm bore X 64mm stroke ether 36HP or 40HP motors up to 1965 in the U S.
from 1966 on they were 1300cc 1966 only, F case 77mm bore X 69mm stroke
1500cc 83mm bore X 69mm stroke
1600cc 85.5mm X 69mm stroke all single port.
later 1600 motors were dual port heads.

find your motor # that will tell you what it started life as only, not what it is now.
look under the generator at the stand where it bolts together you will find the motor # there. #s only or 1 or 2 Letters and numbers the 1432 on the stand is the firing order If the stand is part of the case and not bolted on it is more then likely a 36HP 1200

due you homework and read and ask questions
the cheapest way is to refresh the motor with bearings, P+Cs set for a buggy 87mm or 88mm P+Cs will work fine. My 73 super with 87's with over 20,000 miles and a teenage son driving it for 5 years still runs strong no oil use and only 1 pushrod tube seal leak.
there will be people that are dead set against them because of heat problems. but I say that is up to you
due a compression test on it that will give you a idea as to the condition of the motor and heads

5737782 40HP you will be very limited to what you can due to it
also check in Vintage Speed
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:08 pm    Post subject: Re: What to Build? (first time engine build advice needed) Reply with quote

I am in the middle of building a 88x82, 1995cc engine with a 40hp case. The biggest problem with early cases is lack of cam bearings. There is shops that will line bore the cam tunnel for brgs but that is becoming a dyeing art. Dan
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:12 pm    Post subject: Re: What to Build? (first time engine build advice needed) Reply with quote

1400 came from the guy that built it back in early 90’s. Somewhere there should be rough paperwork for the engine, it was bored over to be a 1400, started with I believe a 40horse? (I think that coincides with what you are telling me?) apparently it was pretty nippy back then (or so my dad says) but now I can bearly keep up with TX traffic.

Tbh, the engine might have more life left in it, but at this point I’m looking forward more power and a good winter project. I’m guessing I’ll have to start with a “new to me” case and build from there, currently doing some reading on AS41 dual relief and why you want one.

I feel like picking parts is the hardest part, after that assembly shouldn’t be to bad.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:14 pm    Post subject: Re: What to Build? (first time engine build advice needed) Reply with quote

I gotta figure out how to use the “reply” function on this forum.

Lingwindel,

2300 is deffinetly waaaay overkill, So the 1776 requires the same machining as a “thin wall” 1835?

And then a “thick wall” 1835 is the same as a 1915, the thick wall and the 1776 cool better, but less power. (Cooling might not be as much a concern because dune buggy?)

so mind as well go either thin 1835 or 1915? Then a “stock” 69mm crank (do I need a counterweighted one?) these engines will want to rev higher and this produce more HP and less torque, other than a fuel pump and maybe a clutch I shouldn’t need any supporting mods?

I still need to go do those searches for head/cam combos
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:15 pm    Post subject: Re: What to Build? (first time engine build advice needed) Reply with quote

KingCarGuyZ wrote:

And then a “thick wall” 1835 is the same as a 1915, the thick wall and the 1776 cool better, but less power. (Cooling might not be as much a concern because dune buggy?)


More or less. In a buggy i would absolutely choose an 1835 or 1915, I go mild most of the time, but if this isn't a heavily driven daily the 1915 would be a great choice.

Quote:
so mind as well go either thin 1835 or 1915? Then a “stock” 69mm crank (do I need a counterweighted one?) these engines will want to rev higher and this produce more HP and less torque, other than a fuel pump and maybe a clutch I shouldn’t need any supporting mods?

I still need to go do those searches for head/cam combos


torque vs HP is as much the cam and heads, but simply having more displacement will give lots of usable torque for your light car. Counterweighted crank is nice but not a necessity unless you plan to scream at high RPM a lot.

Dave is a buggy guy that has racing results to back up what he says, a good guy to listen to on here. Cool


I like mild, but I also drive the piss out of my cars 40-100 miles a day so tend towards that. For a short trip car a 1915 makes sense.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 12:52 pm    Post subject: Re: What to Build? (first time engine build advice needed) Reply with quote

KingCarGuyZ wrote:

Biggest limitation is budget, I'm kinda just pricing out right now, but im a poor HS kid, so money isn't exactly pouring out of me.

How much money do you have to spend? This determines everything.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:36 pm    Post subject: Re: What to Build? (first time engine build advice needed) Reply with quote

KingCarGuyZ wrote:
So the 1776 requires the same machining as a “thin wall” 1835?


I've been using the same thin-wall 92mm cylinders in my 1835cc engine since 1986; engine has not been apart at all since that time either, and my VW runs in the Arizona desert, drives my 1971 Convertible, plenty of power. I have a single Weber carb, vintage German 009 distributor, stock camshaft, nothing special on the heads except for opening up for the larger cylinders.

So in a lighter dune buggy would deliver even more apparent power.

Back then: thick-wall 92mm stuff was either expensive or not invented yet....
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:02 pm    Post subject: Re: What to Build? (first time engine build advice needed) Reply with quote

[/quote]
How much money do you have to spend? This determines everything.[/quote]

right now? about 500 bucks. Shocked really I'm planning for a later build, trying to get a list together so I can watch for cheap parts. I hope to spend <2,500 on it, but the more I look the less likely that gets, might just have to save up for longer. don't want to half ass an engine.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:13 pm    Post subject: Re: What to Build? (first time engine build advice needed) Reply with quote

Price the build around the displacement, heads and cam. Choose those and go from there.

I've got almost ~700 into my heads alone, those are going to be your biggest cost right there. Going hotter gets pricy fast. Plan to put most of your total into the heads.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: What to Build? (first time engine build advice needed) Reply with quote

40 HP with a big bore is 1385, correct? Probably where the "1400" comes from...
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:03 pm    Post subject: Re: What to Build? (first time engine build advice needed) Reply with quote

After a 1500, 1600, 1641, 1776, 1915, 2054, f it, it's time to go turbo Subaru. Probably cheaper than my 2054.
Poor high school kid? Wait until you start paying your own way. Last kid is sophomore in college, I just started to find a little extra time and money.
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