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GeorgeL
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2006
Posts: 7346
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 Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| modok wrote: |
WOW, that's profound.
I'm not sure I buy it though, silicone is chock full of this acid, and does not seem to do any harm.
I promise I will report back next time I split it.
Ok, the "acid theory" seems to warrant further study. |
So, I take it that if you've been driving it this long it sealed well?
It will be interesting to see. The other side of the argument might be that so little of the acid would be left after it squeezed out that there wouldn't be much reaction with the metal.
Another question: How much beer was consumed before this experiment was conceived? |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26785
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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Nobody thinks it leaks?
Ok, Result: no leaks
You guessed it.
This either proves that ketchup can be a sealant, or that it just does not matter what you use.
The idea was inspired by a debate in which I said "you could probably just hawk a loogie on it and smear it around, if the case is good it won't leak". My friend did not believe.
I substituted ketchup for loogie because ketchup is more standardized.
Any good experiment needs to be repeatable. |
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spyvsspy
Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2006
Posts: 1022
Location: inside the barrel...
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| Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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Modok, you are one of the coolest personas on this site. Ketchup? I would've never thought about that. HAHA I also dig the sig lines of changing the scat lifters with your oil and gene bergs bus running hot!
Back to topic, Hylomar is pretty bad ass. Smells a little but I now prefer it over curil T. You can use hylomar on everypart of the engine. Period.
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It is what it is. |
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GeorgeL
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2006
Posts: 7346
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| Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| spyvsspy wrote: |
| You can use hylomar on everypart of the engine. Period. |
I've found this to be fairly true. It bothered me a bit because the idea of a "universal" sealant sounds a bit too much like snake oil. However, there are few places where you can't use Hylomar to advantage. I wouldn't use it on the fuel system, but then again I seldom need any sealing help there.
The more I think about ketchup the more reasons I can think of that it would work. It has pureed tomato in it, so there is a fiberous component that would assist sealing. I don't think I'll replace my tube of Hylomar just yet, but if I were on a desert island and all I had was ketchup... |
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bigbore
Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2003
Posts: 3297
Location: Wasilla Alaska
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:25 am Post subject: |
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To me there is no "universal sealant" thats why there ase so many kind's.
I have used Gasgacinch for at least 25 years and it's my favrite for alot of work. But I also use Hylomar,ultragrey,hondabond,yamabond,permatex form-a-gasket 2 (I use it very little a small tube has lasted me 10 years or so) Dirko but I haven't used it on a aircooled case, also victor dichtmasse 300SI. I think its about the same as Dirko thay both come in the head sets for waterboxer's just diffrent brands of kit's and of course red rtv but very little and never for case sealant. So I haven't tryed Curil yet I will have to look into it.
Thay all have there use and place there is on "one size fits all" sealant.
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Sigurd
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2006
Posts: 2639
Location: Rockford, IL
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:56 am Post subject: |
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I love the smell of Permatex Aviation and I will always associate that smell with my first engine build. However, that motor had so much blowby (reused P/C  ) that I have no idea if the stuff even worked. Now I use Curil T because of the easy cleanup. |
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Almost Alive
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2009
Posts: 1345
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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Brothers VW recommended using Threebond 1211 so I gave it a go on the cylinders-to-case and so far its holding up great. No leaks and it seems to be staying intact very well.
I'll be using it on the next case I split. |
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udidwht
Samba Member
Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| GeorgeL wrote: |
| spyvsspy wrote: |
| You can use hylomar on everypart of the engine. Period. |
I've found this to be fairly true. It bothered me a bit because the idea of a "universal" sealant sounds a bit too much like snake oil. However, there are few places where you can't use Hylomar to advantage. I wouldn't use it on the fuel system, but then again I seldom need any sealing help there.
The more I think about ketchup the more reasons I can think of that it would work. It has pureed tomato in it, so there is a fiberous component that would assist sealing. I don't think I'll replace my tube of Hylomar just yet, but if I were on a desert island and all I had was ketchup... |
I use a dab (hylomar) on the bolts for the T-4 fuel pump. The stuff is amazing. You can even remove the part and replace it without cleaning and prepping the part for sealant second time around. |
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drivnvws
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2010
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:43 am Post subject: |
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Hey Guys, Never used Curil for case sealing, always used Permatex aviation. I am trying the Curil this time around, and since everyone says it doesn't fully harden, how much squeezeout is allowed. I put a small bead on sealing surface, and there was a tiny bit of squeezeout on the outside and the inside of the case. What happens with the Curil on the inside of the case. I don't want any of it getting into places where it shouldn't be.
Thanks for your time, Eric |
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Käfer59
Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2008
Posts: 153
Location: San Gabriel, California
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| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:53 am Post subject: |
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Question guys.
Can I use a sealant on the barrel to case side without taking the barrel completely out and halving to repress the rings. I have a 1600 and the barrel moved from the case about 1/8th of an inch when I was pulling off the head.. This might be a dumb question but this is the first time I'm adventuring this far.
Thanks |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16863
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:17 am Post subject: |
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So 2 of my favorite vendors are out of curil  I was wondering what flavor curil (as in T or K2) is best for case half sealant.
Also a few years back I had a longblock put together by boston bob before he passed. He used this yellow stuff. Anyone know what that is? The engine is drier than a popcorn fart!
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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yamaducci
Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2010
Posts: 2335
Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:32 am Post subject: |
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You can also use Loctite 518 which is like red loctite paste on the case halves.
Curil T is the thicker of the two Curils.
The Yellow stuff is 3M Weather strip adhesive in the red and white tube commonly found at body shop supply stores, paint shops etc
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My 2498 Turbo Re-Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578697#5578697
3rd Brake Light Safety Stars- I still have a couple with blue light left. Email me if interested. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16863
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:37 am Post subject: |
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Ok so the 518 is a good way to go if I can't find curil? The yellow stuff I speak of isn't weatherstrip goo near as I can tell. Its a super pale yellow and is dry not gooey. Ill have to take a pic.
If the 518 will work I'm all for it
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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yamaducci
Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2010
Posts: 2335
Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| Käfer59 wrote: |
Question guys.
Can I use a sealant on the barrel to case side without taking the barrel completely out and halving to repress the rings. I have a 1600 and the barrel moved from the case about 1/8th of an inch when I was pulling off the head.. This might be a dumb question but this is the first time I'm adventuring this far.
Thanks |
After you get the head off; make sure your piston is at top dead center (roughly) on the barrel you are working on. Slide the barrel out a couple inches. Get rid of any paper gasket material if it was previously used. Do not try to use a paper gasket when reassembling, it is not needed. You can then clean the bottom of the barrel with carb cleaner and finish it off with acetone. As long as it's perfectly clean like it's brand new and there is no oil residue then you can run a thin bead of sealer arount eh barrel only. You can use Ultra Grey of the Blue High temp or even Copper High temp sealer. So both cylinders on the same side of the case then reinstall the head, Pushrod tubes (after properly expanding them) and new seals then torque the head down to spec.
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-John Cox
My 2498 Turbo Re-Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578697#5578697
3rd Brake Light Safety Stars- I still have a couple with blue light left. Email me if interested.
Last edited by yamaducci on Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:51 am; edited 2 times in total |
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yamaducci
Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2010
Posts: 2335
Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
Ok so the 518 is a good way to go if I can't find curil? The yellow stuff I speak of isn't weatherstrip goo near as I can tell. Its a super pale yellow and is dry not gooey. Ill have to take a pic.
If the 518 will work I'm all for it |
The 518 will work for sure...
Although many people use the bright yellow weatherstrip adhesive also known as gorilla snot; if yours is light yellow then it may be threebond or maybe aged Curil. Yamabond, hondabond are also awesome but harder to clean up if you take things apart often. They can be had at the local cycle shop.
_________________
-John Cox
My 2498 Turbo Re-Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578697#5578697
3rd Brake Light Safety Stars- I still have a couple with blue light left. Email me if interested. |
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yamaducci
Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2010
Posts: 2335
Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16863
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:57 am Post subject: |
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That looks like the stuff! So now begs the question do I use that or the curil t? I guess both will make a leak free seal
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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yamaducci
Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2010
Posts: 2335
Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| That looks like the stuff! So now begs the question do I use that or the curil t? I guess both will make a leak free seal |
I use 518. I also use a host of other sealers in other places.
Aircooled.net used Curil T
Brothers Machine uses Threebond
You can't go wrong with any of them on the halves. Just use a good light coat of RTV in the cylinder bases and I use hylomar on the oil pump body and cover.
_________________
-John Cox
My 2498 Turbo Re-Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578697#5578697
3rd Brake Light Safety Stars- I still have a couple with blue light left. Email me if interested. |
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bartman
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2004
Posts: 767
Location: palatka, fl
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| yamaducci wrote: |
| Käfer59 wrote: |
Question guys.
Can I use a sealant on the barrel to case side without taking the barrel completely out and halving to repress the rings. I have a 1600 and the barrel moved from the case about 1/8th of an inch when I was pulling off the head.. This might be a dumb question but this is the first time I'm adventuring this far.
Thanks |
After you get the head off; make sure your piston is at top dead center (roughly) on the barrel you are working on. Slide the barrel out a couple inches. Get rid of any paper gasket material if it was previously used. Do not try to use a paper gasket when reassembling, it is not needed. You can then clean the bottom of the barrel with carb cleaner and finish it off with acetone. As long as it's perfectly clean like it's brand new and there is no oil residue then you can run a thin bead of sealer arount eh barrel only. You can use Ultra Grey of the Blue High temp or even Copper High temp sealer. So both cylinders on the same side of the case then reinstall the head, Pushrod tubes (after properly expanding them) and new seals then torque the head down to spec. |
You can also pull the cylinder enough to expose the wrist pin and press the pin out with a threaded rod/socket press and remove the cylinder and piston as a unit. It's less awkward than trying to work around the studs. This is a lot easier to do if you're removing both barrels but can be done with just one.
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32586
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:17 am Post subject: |
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Ok, this is a topic as old as the hills and gets a lot of heated discussion. I'm in the midst of some fairly accurate but not exactly scientific tests.
I contacted Permatex and asked what the thinnest working film of RTV is and at what torque value. I was surprised at the response I got back.....
"David ... We ... being an Automotive oriented company ... have never conducted experimental analysis to produce the information you are requesting. If you want to contact us ... you can do that ... toll-free @ 877.376-2839.
Hank Peckman
Research & Development
Technical Service Group"
They don't know apparently how thick their product can be squeezed down to. I ask this question because of bearing crush issues using RTV.
So I conducted a test.
Part 1:
two pieces of steel each measuring .1285 in thickness. Probably not 100% consistent but I measured them at several locations along their length.
I used a tube of Red RTV High Temperature that I had in my tool box.
I squeezed on a small bead.
I then clamped the two pieces of steel in my Antique Wilton C1 Vise. Most of the RTV oozed out top and bottom. I squeezed the steel as tight as I could using only the vise handle.
EDIT: I've added dimensions for the steel clamped in the vise with the ATV between them. The clean steel clamped in the vise measures .257 the RED RTV measures just shy of .258 an film thickness of almost .001
Clean steel
Red RTV
After setting up overnight under pressure I took out the piece of steel and separated them using a screw driver, they fought me but they did indeed come apart leaving residual RTV on both pieces.
I then measured, carefully, very carefully so as not to dig into the RTV film using the anvil on both sides, in the silicone and on the steel and consistently came up with either .129 and .1295.
My conclusion is that Red RTV leaves behind a film that varies between .0005 and .001 thick.
Used on a case this would change your bearing crush calculations.
Now onto the next test using Hylomar!!
Ok, same test......
It is setting in the vise, clamped tight overnight, we'll see what tomorrow brings!
Dave
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Last edited by djkeev on Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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