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soazvw
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 66
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 Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:58 pm Post subject: alum vs. as41 case |
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hey what do you guys think is the best case to go with?
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sold:73 stock squareback
89' jeep cherokee<rockdude> |
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1200RS
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2006
Posts: 82
Location: france
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject: Re: alum vs. as41 case |
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| soazvw wrote: |
| hey what do you guys think is the best case to go with? |
AS41 is far better, and more than adequate for running in the 10's |
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soazvw
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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whats the differeance?
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1200RS
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2006
Posts: 82
Location: france
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| soazvw wrote: |
| whats the differeance? |
AS41 is an alloy of magnesium, whereas aluminium blocs are made with an aluminium alloy.
AS41 are far lighter, have do not have tooling problems.
the choice of an aluminium bloc have to be considered only for 82/86mm cranks, because you have not to use spacers under the cylinders, the siting area is far thicker
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sorry, i'm french |
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jamestwo
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Joined: November 01, 2004
Posts: 2203
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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I like the as41, but with all the aluminiums ones on the market, I finally got one. First impression, it's heavy.
So far it checks out, but I haven't started the motor yet.
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1200RS
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2006
Posts: 82
Location: france
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| jamestwo wrote: |
I like the as41, but with all the aluminiums ones on the market, I finally got one. First impression, it's heavy.
So far it checks out, but I haven't started the motor yet. |
of course
density of magnesium 1.8
density of aluminium 2.7.
50% more weight.
evry time peaple tell me about alu, I report what say Ian Clark in GB
"aluminium bloc is probably better, but I dont need it."
He ran in the mid 10's 
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jamestwo
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Joined: November 01, 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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True, been a diehard AS41 advacate, but the Aluminium is about 200 cheaper, because it comes bored for larger cylinders, full flowed and no need to sleeve lifter bores.
We will see 
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propflux01
Samba Member
Joined: June 03, 2006
Posts: 501
Location: Central Arkansastan
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| What was/is the purpose of making an aluminum block to begin with? is there some benefit to it? |
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kimosullivan
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2004
Posts: 45
Location: Las Cruces, NM
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| propflux01 wrote: |
| What was/is the purpose of making an aluminum block to begin with? is there some benefit to it? |
Aluminum is stronger and therefore more crack resistant. After having two magnesium cases get cracked oil galleys, I like the option of aluminum. More importantly, the foundry was probably trying to reduce the ammount of magnesium casting it had to do, since most of its work is aluminum.
| propflux01 wrote: |
| AS41 are far lighter, have do not have tooling problems. |
What tooling problems are you refering too? I haven't noticed any machining problems with the aluminum cases. They're certainly easier to weld for full flow oiling.
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krusher
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2002
Posts: 7652
Location: europe
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| 1200RS wrote: |
| jamestwo wrote: |
I like the as41, but with all the aluminiums ones on the market, I finally got one. First impression, it's heavy.
So far it checks out, but I haven't started the motor yet. |
of course
density of magnesium 1.8
density of aluminium 2.7.
50% more weight.
evry time peaple tell me about alu, I report what say Ian Clark in GB
"aluminium bloc is probably better, but I dont need it."
He ran in the mid 10's |
People allways think in 1 dimension when they like to put somthing down. But how long will that as41 last doing 10's?
I'm no advocate of the alu case, but people seem to miss that if it turns out to be as strong as the type4 case, you may be able to do 200,000 hard miles open it up and find no line bore is needed and the mains have not become battered from high gear luggin.
There should be long term benifits, keep that in mind.
Oh and this question gets covered about once a month, can we have a sticky to follow what people have found whiule using them.
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76941
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| krusher wrote: |
[
Oh and this question gets covered about once a month, can we have a sticky to follow what people have found whiule using them.
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Okee Dokee, but let's keep it n topic.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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soazvw
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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so for dirveability and reliability i should go with a alu block because it is stronger?
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76941
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| soazvw wrote: |
| so for dirveability and reliability i should go with a alu block because it is stronger? |
No.
Most if not all of the aluminum cases are sand cast and are brittle.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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Wild Bill
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Joined: January 02, 2006
Posts: 1013
Location: Pepsi-Cola, Fl
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:07 am Post subject: |
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 Just built a 2110 alu block. Will put in on the engine stand this week to break it in. Goes into the car this weekend. I'll give a report as to what happens. ps I drive real Hard!!
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soazvw
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2004
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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so glenn do you recommend a as41 then?
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millerje78
Samba Amishman
Joined: October 16, 2005
Posts: 2445
Location: Holmes County, Ohio
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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you ought to look for an AS-21 case if you are super worried about strength. those use a stronger alloy than the AS-41 and can be found in fuel injected late model bugs. I think there is one in the classifieds right now.
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
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Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| soazvw wrote: |
| so glenn do you recommend a as41 then? |
I built my 1904cc on a German Industrial AS-21 case. It's about as strong as you can get... and it's OEM.
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Glenn
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GeorgeL
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Joined: January 16, 2006
Posts: 7346
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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Is _anyone_ making a _correctly_ machined aluminum case? I've never heard of anyone putting together a motor based upon a aluminum case without major corrective machine work. There's a fellow on the type2 list whose aluminum case turned into a supreme money pit.
I think I'd look into converting a wasserboxer case before I went for an aftermarket aluminum case. There's still a lot of machining involved, but at least you start with a VW factory case that is predictable.
George |
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jamestwo
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Joined: November 01, 2004
Posts: 2203
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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empi cases are the best, believe it or not, and they are cheaper.
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hEY, lOOK, i'M WRONG HALF THE TIME, AND THE OTHER HALF i'M NOT SURE WHAT THE HECK i'M TALKING ABOUT. MY POST ARE FOR MY OWN ENTERTAINMENT VALUE ONLY. |
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kimosullivan
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2004
Posts: 45
Location: Las Cruces, NM
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenn wrote: |
| Most if not all of the aluminum cases are sand cast and are brittle. |
http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Al/xtal.html
http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/Mg/xtal.html
Observe that magnesium has a hexagonal close packed (HCP) crystalline structure, while aluminum had a cubic close packed or face centered cubic (FCC) crystalline structure. The HCP structure has only one close packed plane while the FCC structure has 4 close packed planes. The likelyhood of four planes having one aligned in the direction of applied stress is much greater than only one plane, therefore dislocation motion inside the FCC crystal grains is much more likely to occur resulting in plastic deformation, while in HCP applied stress will more likely result in high stress concentration at grain boundaries leading to microcrack growth and finally macroscopic crack development and propagation.
| GeorgeL wrote: |
| Is _anyone_ making a _correctly_ machined aluminum case? I've never heard of anyone putting together a motor based upon a aluminum case without major corrective machine work. |
http://www.grupohubner.com.br/autolinea/04_produtos.html
I've got an Auto Linea case. It arrived ready for a stock 1600. The only work I had to do was bore it for 90.5mm cylinders, clearance it for a 78mm crank, and weld, drill, tap, and plug for full flow. These would all have to be done to a stock magnesium case anyway, and the welding was much easier on aluminum.
I will say that the oill pump I have was 0.050" out of alignment with the oil galleys in case, but that was remedied by a 0.050" thick piece of aluminum and a hole saw to shim it out.
Being that Auto Linea casts nonferrous parts for Catapillar, Ford, VW, Mercedes-Benz, Scania, and Volvo, I feel that I can trust their abilities to do it right.
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