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Tight end play..
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Nickyblake
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:05 pm    Post subject: Tight end play.. Reply with quote

Hi, not much of a mechanic but I needed to change the main seal on my new bug, I bought the idiot book and thought id have a go with my more mechanically minded brother in law.

So the engine came out without much trouble, got the gland nut off and the old seal out no problem. I borrowed a digital meter for checking the end play, I don't know what it was initially (probably should have checked). I put in 2 extra shims and had an endplay of 0.003... I thought this was perfect! so back in it went.... Yeah so it won't turn over (what a melt eh)

Some advice would be great, I assume it's just a case of dropping back out, removing seal, leaving more play, 0.005? I'm going to get an assortment of shims, I did want to leave a bit more room but didn't have the shims for it, it was either .008 with 1 extra shim or 0.003 with 2. I assumed the smaller play would be better, I have historical mots and the engine only has 25000 miles on it so I'm assuming the bearing shouldn't be knackered...

Thanks in advance for any advice Smile
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MacLeod Willy
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:55 pm    Post subject: shims Reply with quote

If you installed 2 extra shims it must have been way off to start with. Pull the motor and check if it turns then recheck that endplay. Too tight and the bearing will spin. I think you might not want that Wink
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modok
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bearing is loose in case. that is also possibly why the seal leaks.
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Nickyblake
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:15 pm    Post subject: Tight Reply with quote

It's definitely tight I had it In the car and the starter won't move it.

I'm going to take it back out at the weekend, yeah 2 extra shims (smallest ones you can get from vw heritage) we really levered the fly wheel/pulley to get the movement, maybe a bit hard.

Could I have damaged the bearing by trying to start the car while it was jammed? (Not that it moved)

If it's 100% jammed at 0.003 would 008 with four shims be ok? I could probably get It to 005 with 3 shims if they were the thicker kind...

There's so much conflicting advice on this.....
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Nickyblake
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:21 pm    Post subject: Definitely Reply with quote

How do you know it's definitely loose in the case??

Maybe I just over tightened it? When wasn't gentle when checking end play?? We really levered off of the case hard... If I had a thicker shim I could get it in 3???
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MacLeod Willy
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:46 pm    Post subject: end play Reply with quote

Where were you measuring the endplay, edge of flywheel or centre?
What was the original endplay?
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Nickyblake
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:56 pm    Post subject: Edge Reply with quote

Hi willy,

we put the digital indicator on the edge of the flywheel, unfortunately we didn't check the original endplay, schoolboy error? There didn't seem to be any obvious movement though..

A moving bareing would mean it needs to go to a machine shop I assume?
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Derek Waycaster
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Either way you should have 3 shims max. Measure your total end play with no shims first, then figure out the combo of 3 shims needed to give you .003-.005.
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Joey
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have the flywheel tightened up against the thrust bearing. The movement you are measuring is the play the bearing has in the case. The engine was running before you pulled it out with this play so it is what it is. You can still run it but keep in mind it'll get worse over time and the case will eventually need machining.

So now that you know you have .003" of play in your thrust bearing. You need to add that to the original spec of .003" - .005" - you need to have a minimum of .006" of play at the flywheel and a maximum of .008".
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there is a point you are not fully understanding...

The purpose of the shims is to control the thrust end-play of the crank. This assumes the crank main bearings are solid/stationary in the case. You want 0.003-0.005" of end-play between the crank and the front (#1) thrust-bearing.

If your thrust-bearing is moving in the bearing saddle and you are adding shim thickness to try and compensate for this, you will likely have completely removed all end-play and you are now measuring the movement of the bearing in the saddle instead of the end-play.

You should only need 3 shims between the flywheel and the front main bearing. There is no protocol for using more.

You need to determine if the bearing is moving in the saddle.
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MacLeod Willy
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:37 am    Post subject: endplay Reply with quote

You mentioned you really levered on the flywheel to see that .003. Wonder if you were flexing the flywheel/crank. Yep, you better start over Sad
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An easy way to move the crank back and forth to check the end play is to remove the distributor cap and turn the rotor back and forth. It takes all the inaccuracies out from pulling/prying on the flywheel or pulley.
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Nickyblake
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:46 pm    Post subject: thanks Reply with quote

Thanks for the advice, i've ordered another seal and some larger shims (ill use 3 this time) i'm sure i can get it within range.

I've had a quote for a line bore and crank machining (the guy said this is what will be needed), the price isn't too terrible so i'm not so worried now but its obviously something I've got to look forward too. I only drive the car at weekends really so i wont put a lot of miles on it. Ill pull the engine in a couple of thousand miles and check it again...
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modok
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you didn't measure the thrust to begin with why did you know it needed to be tighter???


The thrust faces of the bearing do not usually wear much at all, possibly none, maybe .002", I'd not assume more.

So really the only reason it would be OFF is if it was not set right to begin with...........which IS possible................but the majority of the time nope.

Having lost all reference I suppose you should keep taking it apart and back together going looser on the shim stack... until it can spin freely, then remove .003" more.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joey wrote:
An easy way to move the crank back and forth to check the end play is to remove the distributor cap and turn the rotor back and forth. It takes all the inaccuracies out from pulling/prying on the flywheel or pulley.


Is this right? I've never heard of this. Wouldn't it take a lot more force to make the crank move than what could be applied at the rotor?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jlex wrote:
Joey wrote:
An easy way to move the crank back and forth to check the end play is to remove the distributor cap and turn the rotor back and forth. It takes all the inaccuracies out from pulling/prying on the flywheel or pulley.


Is this right? I've never heard of this. Wouldn't it take a lot more force to make the crank move than what could be applied at the rotor?


This doesn't make any sense to me either.
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Joey
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cusser wrote:
jlex wrote:
Joey wrote:
An easy way to move the crank back and forth to check the end play is to remove the distributor cap and turn the rotor back and forth. It takes all the inaccuracies out from pulling/prying on the flywheel or pulley.


Is this right? I've never heard of this. Wouldn't it take a lot more force to make the crank move than what could be applied at the rotor?


This doesn't make any sense to me either.


Look at the gear on the distributor drive gear pinion - the teeth are pretty much vertical... same as the drive gear on the crank... it works like rack and pinion steering... pretty simple - try it.
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ashman40
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:09 am    Post subject: Re: Tight end play.. Reply with quote

Nickyblake wrote:
I borrowed a digital meter for checking the end play, I don't know what it was initially (probably should have checked). I put in 2 extra shims and had an endplay of 0.003...

Maybe I'm not familiar with all the different micrometers out there but you should have used a tool like this to measure end play:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


or like this:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


What are you using take your measurements and how are taking it?
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Last edited by ashman40 on Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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jlex
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joey wrote:
Cusser wrote:
jlex wrote:
Joey wrote:
An easy way to move the crank back and forth to check the end play is to remove the distributor cap and turn the rotor back and forth. It takes all the inaccuracies out from pulling/prying on the flywheel or pulley.


Is this right? I've never heard of this. Wouldn't it take a lot more force to make the crank move than what could be applied at the rotor?


This doesn't make any sense to me either.


Look at the gear on the distributor drive gear pinion - the teeth are pretty much vertical... same as the drive gear on the crank... it works like rack and pinion steering... pretty simple - try it.


The car's put away for the winter for the first time, so I'll have to check it out later. I'm assuming the belt should be removed first. How much force do you need to put on that rotor before there's any movement? Seems like if you were pulling on the crank pulley, there's a good bit of force needed to move it.
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