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elbuggy
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:32 pm    Post subject: Electrical problems Reply with quote

hi all i am new to this forum. i recently got a buggy. it is on a 67 tub and has a 67 1600 type 3 motor in the back. the previous owner had it sitting in his yard for about 5 years. he said the last time he tried to get it running it ran for about 5-10 min then died.

i got it home and got it running in about 20 min, when it died after about 10 min. the battery had been drained to below 12v. so i have been having an ongoing battle with this monster.

i am pretty sure it is either wiring or a charging problem. the motor just runs off the battery. i bought a new regulator and a new coil for it with no effect. today i ran it on a fully charged battery and was checking the volts at the battery after about every 45 sec to a minute.

it read between 12.5 to 13v and was like an uncorrelated scatter plot. ive been battling this thing for 2 weeks now and i really want to win. any thoughts or suggestions would be great.

thanks
eli
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Lo Cash John
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Electrical problems can be difficult to chase if you are a novice at this type of work.
As for testing the charging system in your car, here's a good discussion over at Dune Buggy Archives...

http://www.dunebuggyarchives.com/forum/topic_show.pl?tid=175

Here's another simple test: Turn your car off, remove the key, shut it down...you get the idea.
Now, take the negative cable loose from the negative post on the battery. Clean the cable end and the post really well with a Scotch-brite pad or brass wire brush. This next part is best done in the dark or low light conditions. Slowly and gentley bring the cable to the post and touch them together. Is there a small spark? Again, you'll see it best in the dark. If you have EVERYTHING turned off (pull the fuse if you have a radio. They draw power at all times) and you have a spark, that means something is draining the battery at all times and needs to be fixed.
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elbuggy
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks. ill be sure to check that asap.
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90volts
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

or you can do yourself a favor and just rewire it right off the bat so you know it is all done correctly and you'll have one less problem to worry about. and probably learn a lot about your ride along the way.
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Yellermanx
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lo Cash John wrote:
Now, take the negative cable loose from the negative post on the battery. Clean the cable end and the post really well with a Scotch-brite pad or brass wire brush. This next part is best done in the dark or low light conditions. Slowly and gentley bring the cable to the post and touch them together. Is there a small spark? Again, you'll see it best in the dark. If you have EVERYTHING turned off (pull the fuse if you have a radio. They draw power at all times) and you have a spark, that means something is draining the battery at all times and needs to be fixed.


A better/safer way to check for a draw on the system is to put a test light between the battery post and the cable that you removed above. If the light is on something is drawing on the battery. Start pulling fuses until the light goes out then you know which system is drawing. If no fuses make a difference you may need to disconnect regulator/generator/alternator to see if any of those are the culprit. This all assumes that the buggy is wired correctly. Very Happy
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Rob Jenks
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:35 pm    Post subject: Dune Buggy Radio Problem - Believe this or not. Reply with quote

This is my first post, so if I am in the wrong place, a little help is needed.

This one is a real headscratcher, here goes.

I have a 68 Manx that had a great stereo system in it, until one day while driving down the road, it quit. I later discovered that it would play without the engine running, so here we go.

Wire by wire we broke into every circuit on the bug, looking for a short or spike, but nothing. The next item was to redo every ground, to no avail.

The output with the engine running is 14.2 and I am told that is perfect. After all of this, I was convinced it was the radio and since it was under warranty, and exchange was made. And I even got a different model, just in case there was an issue with the model I had.

After installation, everything worked perfect, until I started the bug, which silenced the radio. It is still on and matters not if I try to listen to FM, AM, or from the SD card….silence.

Once again, we did all the tests known to man and even took discounted the battery while it was running and stuck a screw driver in the ground and used that as a ground….silence.

So now I am convinced there is something wrong with that make and ordered another brand of radio. Hooked it up, plays perfect, start it up…..silence.

At this point I figure at some point and time an idiot light will come on between my ears and in the meantime I will put an ancillary battery in the bug, along with a solar charger and run it that way until I figure this out. So, radio hot to positive and memory to same post. Radio negative to negative. I verified that each speaker works properly and since they are mounted in fiberglass, I good to go. Start it up….silence. After some deep thought, I realize that the only thing the three radios had in common was the antenna. And since I exclusively listen to music via an SD card, I pulled the plug on it. And as a final gesture, I took the ground strap off the back of the radio. So now I am totally independent. As it is now, the link between the radio, its power system, its ground and its antenna, are zero. I start the bug up….silence.

Sign on shop wall. – Bang Head Here - Still makes a sound, even with the engine running.
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Dale M.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really sounds like a wiring issue ... Where is power source for radio power ...Is it by chance the acc. poition on ignition switch??...

Is there 14 volts power at input (fuse) to radio with engine running?

Dale
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Rob Jenks
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:39 pm    Post subject: Dune Buggy Radio Problem - Believe this or not. Reply with quote

It matters not how it is wired as we have tried them all. This is a key less system and there are many options; we have tried them all. But again, the radios power source is not hooked up to any system in the bug, none. It is a stand along battery that is just fully charged and was used as part of our sleuthing process. The radio is wired direct to the battery, the antenna is discounted as is the ground strap. So independent from anything and everything it works perfect, just like the 3 previous (2 new) radios.... until the engine is started. The radio says on, but the sound goes off.
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dlund
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I'll bite...

Just to be clear. Are you saying that the only connection between the radio and the vehicle is the speakers, which should be isolated from ground, it still mutes when the engine is started? It sounds like you've got a completely isolated supply with the aux battery.

Dave
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EVfun
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need to go back and check again. Clearly you have not completely isolated the stereo's electrical connections from the vehicles 12 volt electrical system. If you take the plug out of the back of the stereo and get another plug, then wire it up with that you will have a completely isolated stereo system. It should not have any response to the vehicle's electrical system (no back lights or anything else.)

One possibility is that your current system is trying to draw too much power off of the hot output that would normally turn on a power amp. I have been told that some stereos will drop out if that is excessively loaded.

Few things change state between key on and not started and key on and started. See if key on and not started cuts out the stereo if the points happen to be closed when you turn the key on (or the remote equivalent.)
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Dale M.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There also is manufacturers of "system" tech support...

Personally I have never heard of the problem you are having, but I am not a auto stereo/sound person either...

Dale
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VOLKSWAGNUT
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My sleuthing approach.. ..

Try disconnecting ALL the alternator/generator/regulator wiring and oil pressure sender.. and if no avail... the alt/gen belt

Maybe something is back feeding through the radio case (sometimes aux ground) IF its mounted or connected by its case to any metal.. ?
You did claim its fully isolated .. is it truly ?

A bad diode in a regulator/alternator can cause havoc on electrical devices via the the negative or positive circuits..

Are the speaker wires routed with any ignition or ground circuits or totally isolated ?
EMI. through insulation is a real thing.. and if its great enough.. will cause issues.

Ground strap jumper at transaxle connected to the chassis and the battery?
It MUST be in place.. or.. the alt/gen has to find an alternate path.. through whatever is the easiest.


EMI secondary ignition long shot...

Possibly high EMI from secondary ignition causing electrical interference that the radios dont like and go into some sort of speaker protection mode?

I cant have my Volksrod running near any radios, garage or keyless remotes thanks to the solid core plug wires..
I've even been 20 feet away with an EMI gauge.. and it will pick up the pulses..


.
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dlund
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was working toward what VOLKSWAGNUT suggested once other sources were eliminated. It is possible the EMI (radiated noise) from the ignition system is being coupled into the speaker wires. The output stage of the amp may see the noise as load fault and shut down. The easiest way to confirm this is to move the speakers and wires away from the ignition. Big ferrite clamp on cores may help too. Put them on the speaker wires where they go into the amp or head unit.

Is it really only when the engine is running (spinning?) ? If you put the key into the run position without going to start and engaging the starter does it still do it?

Dave
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Rob Jenks
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks everybody for your input, but sadly most have been tried, only to fail. But yes, other than the speakers, which are mounted directly to the fiberglass, the stereo has nothing left in common with the dune buggy. The radio is a direct connect to the aux. battery, which is connected to nothing else.
The radiated noise is a possibility, although I am uncertain why that would all the sudden be an issue. But after sleeping on this I was wondering this. What if one of the speaker wires, in its routing though the buggy, has picked up a current coming from a hot wire. So two wires bunched up, and over time they rub raw and are cross feeding. This would explain why the sound only stops once the buggy is started…..I’m not certain.
And yes, prior to this absolute isolation, we have double checked the grounds and discounted every component wire possible, although we never did take the belt off. They system worked fine for a year and then quit. And during that time I added nothing but oil to the vehicle.
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PaulN
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You say you have a "Great Stereo System", and you have it totally isolated with it's own battery? Could there possibly be one of those accessory Bluetooth phone adapters in the system? They are designed to mute the stereo speakers when a call comes in. Maybe you didn't see it? Maybe it's malfunctioning? What about outboard amplifiers? Trigger lines isolated?
Without knowing what the system consists of, it's difficult to troubleshoot.

Paul
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andygere
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try the system with a different pair of speakers, with wiring not run through the buggy. If the stereo works as it should, independently powered, with speakers not mounted or wired in the buggy, you will have isolated the problem to the speakers or their wires.
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Rob Jenks
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:42 pm    Post subject: Update Reply with quote

After the first radio, that worked perfect for almost a year failed, I did get one of those gadget laced radio’s with Bluetooth, GPS, blah, blah, blah, and that one never worked at all. So my third radio is as basic as they come. There is not even an amp.

Tonight I took all of the speakers off line and then plugged one speaker into each pair of wires from the radio, one at a time. The stereo would play, until you stepped on the gas, and then there was no getting the sound back without turning the engine off. So that kind of kills the bad wire theory, as each speaker wire run would have to be bad.

Tomorrow I am going to take the radio out of the buggy and place it about 10’ away and string a set of wires to again try the one speaker at a time. I am heavily leaning to what Volkswagnut wrote about EMI interference and this test should verify or discredit that theory. If that in fact is the case, I am totally lost as to where the interference is coming from. Other than taking the fan belt off, to stop the alternator, I’ve tried everything. I’ve even turned off my cell phone and pulled the power on the garage door opener.

I hear a bang head here sign calling me, in the meantime thanks again to everyone.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

andygere wrote:
Try the system with a different pair of speakers, with wiring not run through the buggy. If the stereo works as it should, independently powered, with speakers not mounted or wired in the buggy, you will have isolated the problem to the speakers or their wires.


I'd also trouble shoot at this point without using the speakers/wires in the buggy. If everything else is isolated it's got to be in those wires. When you say it worked for years then stopped I start to think some sort of short. Get a speaker and run it direct from the amp.

You also mentioned you're useing a receiver and an amp. Has the amp been looked at for proper function.

AMAC
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VOLKSWAGNUT
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So it seems to have jumped all around as to what the car is equipped with?

Radio = Check
Amp = Yes or no.. I think I read No at this point??
Speakers How many?


At this point before I'd started removing parts from the car and testing off car..... Id route test speaker wires away from the primary harness from the source be it radio or amp to the speakers..

Testing off and AWAY from the car is going to yield results to what you'd expect.. everything works fine..

The problem is the car.. not the radio most likely..

If it has an AMP as the speaker source .. the next test would be to bypass it and directly connect speakers to the control head or radio.

If the problem still persist after test speaker wires you'd need to start checking secondary ignition..

Speaking of which.. what is used for ignition?
Points? Ignitor? Please detail..

We can only assume this has a VW engine..

More info please...

Oh.... and these are contradicting.. did you check the wiring.. or not..

Rob Jenks wrote:
Wire by wire we broke into every circuit on the bug, looking for a short or spike, but nothing. T.


Rob Jenks wrote:
But after sleeping on this I was wondering this. What if one of the speaker wires, in its routing though the buggy, has picked up a current coming from a hot wire. So two wires bunched up, and over time they rub raw and are cross feeding. This would explain why the sound only stops once the buggy is started…..



The problem with that.. if it were a short... just turning the IGN ON should yield radio silence...


Which does it have? Generator or Alternator?

Have you disconnected the Alt/Gen/regulator, oil pressure sensor and remove the belt and try?



Dont start removing radio parts thats going backwards.. .... .. the solution is near.. Wink




.
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Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
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Rob Jenks
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:02 am    Post subject: Follow up Reply with quote

There is no amp.
There are 4 speakers
I am using points on a VW engine
I am using an alternator
I have, at one time or another, disconnected everything except to remove the belt or replace the distributer.
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