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Frame head repair....all or part?
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mailman
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:44 pm    Post subject: Frame head repair....all or part? Reply with quote

I need to repair the front frame head area on my '64 Beetle. The only part that's rusted is the bottom plate, and only toward the back where it meets the front of the floor pans. (The floor pans are being replaced also.)

Should I attempt to remove and replace the entire bottom plate, or should I section the replacement piece and only replace the rearmost 2 or 3 inches? I'm leaning toward cutting the repair panel and saving as much as I can of the OG metal and panel alignment.

The same is true of the pan bulkhead that is just below the front body "firewall". It's the piece that the brake master cylinder passes through. It's rusted badly and needs repair, but only at the very outside ends, where the long body-to-pan bolts pass through. Should I replace the entire panel, including the part that goes "over the hump", or section in just the 5 or 6 inches at each end where the rust is?

What's the most logical sequence for these three repairs.......the floor pans, the pan bulkhead, and the frame head bottom plate? Which should I do first, and then next, for the repair to be optimal?

This is a huge undertaking for me, and I'd appreciate any help you can offer. I'm a fair mechanic, but a novice bodyman..... Anxious
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Matt K.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would try to save as much of the OG metal as i could but in the same token try to eliminate as much of the rusty metal as well. Start with the floor pan halves first and get the floor taken care of and the move on to repairing the front bulkhead. Just take you time and be patient to make sure everything fits and looks nice before welding...........this will ensure that your fabrication will be strong.
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mailman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt...

Thanks for the advice. I was up under my other '64 today, and took a look at the same area. This car has virtually no rust, so I use it to see how things should look. Smile

I think the floor pan halves sit on top of the rear lip of the bulkhead piece, is that right? So should I replace the floor pan halves, then graft the new ends on the bulkhead? Then repair just the rusty portion of the pan head bottom plate....does this sound like the right sequence?

It'll be nice to have a solid pan, once and for all.......
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Steve C
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doing about the same repair myself . This is the pan on my Bradley that I am restoring .
I bought both the lower plate and bulkhead repro parts from Cip1 , however the brazilion parts are much thinner than the og metal .
A friend gave me another head piece ,with out any rust so I am going for the bottom plate and the bulkhead piece . It invovles a whole lotta work drilling out spot welds and such . You really need the pans off to get at all the welds . My chassis is pretty much stripped right now , will try to post a pict in the next couple days . Later , Steve
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mailman
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Steve..... I'll look forward to seeing your project.

I've got the body off. Now I need to remove the trans and the front suspension before I can get started.

I bought the frame head bottom plate at some point....not sure who I ordered it from. Maybe it was the old Rocky Mountain outfit...seems quite thick and heavy. Ordered the bulkhead piece from cip1 the other day....
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coW
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a similar condition so replaced both bottom plate and napoleon hat(*). My bottom panel didn't fit quite so nicely and you will probably have to beat and grind it into submission as well. Especially the front portion where it welds to the framehead take a bit to fit.

The best way I found to remove that napoleon hat is to cut it length wise along the spine, basically splitting the hat lengthwise. Then bend the halves apart so you can get a locking pliers in there.
Wrecking it back and forth get the metal off close to the tunnel.
Then carefully grind the tunnel welds down.


Since you are working in this general area, would you do me a favor and tell me what the hole size is of the tab that holds the brake lines? My bottom plate didn't have them so need to fabricate them.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


(* that thing the brake cylinder passes through).
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mailman
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RemcoW....

The "hat" you're talking about removing (the front pan bulkhead), is not something I intend to completely remove. Only the outside ends are rusted. I plan on cutting off those rusty ends, and replacing them with the ends from a repair panel. I want to preserve as much of the factory sheet metal and its original alignment and positioning as is possible.
The same for the frame head bottom plate. I intend to remove only the rusted part at the rear near the bulkhead, and then graft in part of a replacement panel.
Hope that makes sense. Maybe if I can figure out the process for posting pictures here I'll put some up.....
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RemcoW....

I measured both my OG panel and my replacement panel....both have holes that are 17mm. Hope that helps!
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mailman wrote:
RemcoW....

I measured both my OG panel and my replacement panel....both have holes that are 17mm. Hope that helps!


Thanks - that's very helpful. My replacement panel did not have any of those tabs installed and tossed the original by mistake.

I hear you on replacing only what is badly rotted. Mine was in really rough shape so decided to take the whole thing off. I'll have to post some pictures of the repair - it came out pretty good.

Since you are in that general viscinity, you may want to look at putting Fluid Film on areas that were previously rusted. I also sprayed inside the framehead and part of the inside of the tunnel with it.
Even with POR and Rustbullet, fluid film protects it well from the elements
(No, I am not affiliated with them - just like the product Smile )
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could you tell me more about this fluid film? I've never heard of it.....
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rem do ya need a set of brakeline brackets ? I ended up with a couple spare sets will send if ya want .
Today I scored a whole pan "untitiled" for 20 bucks .
Instead of messing with just the frame head and bulkhead etc... I am going to remove and replace the whole front of the pan .
Stagger the tunnel and the bottom plate joints by about a foot , and use extra metal at the joints for back up . Once I get it all cut up will get the picts . Sucks not having a torch Wink , a cutoff wheel is slow going hehe .
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fluid Film is this fairly thick grease that you brush or spray on. People use it on internal panels but also as undercoating. It does not dry up, does not run - it wants to stay put.
I brushed some on a piece of steel almost a year ago and left it outside. There's not a spec of rust on it what-so-ever.
http://www.eurekafluidfilm.com/


Steve:
Congrats on the score - very nice!
I appreciate the offer but don't want you to go through any trouble cutting them off, etc.
If they are loose anyway and you won't use them, let me know how much you want for them. Thanks!
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve C.....

I'm curious....how are you going to manage all of the tubes that are found in the tunnel?

To cut the pan in two and replace the front half sounds great, but the tunnel isn't just empty. There is an internal hard line for fuel, a clutch cable tube, a throttle cable tube, two heater cable tubes and two emergency brake cable tubes. These tubes are carefully routed and welded to brackets inside the tunnel.

If you made your cut forward of the shifter you could eliminate involvement with the heater cable and emergency brake cable tubes, but you'd still have to worry about clutch, throttle and fuel.

Have you decided how to accommodate them?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rem, Pm me your adress and consider them sent , I have had great fortune in my project so far so I just figure I should pass some on .

Mailman ,
I got lucky with my cuts and most of the brackets fall near where things will be open . With exception on the clutch cable tube fwd mount , I will have to cut an acess hole to weld it back to the bracket . It was broke loose from the bracket so dissasemby was easy . I will replace the fuel line and it basically slides thru the brackets . Accel cable nuther easy one just need to cut the tacks at the fwd exit point. The heat exchanger and ebrake tubes are going to be a challenge the bracket is just aft of the ebrake hole . I think my aft lower plate cut will allow acess there .

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
The replacement piece
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
The cut on lower panel
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
The section that will be removed to move stick shift mount back
Lots of fun ahead .... still have to build a jig to hold every thing straight for fit up Cheers , Steve
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coW
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve C wrote:
Rem, Pm me your adress and consider them sent , I have had great fortune in my project so far so I just figure I should pass some on .


Thanks -- you have a PM.
Let me at least paypal you some beer money for your trouble, ok?
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