Author |
Message |
fisheye Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2005 Posts: 101 Location: Boca Raton, FL
|
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:45 am Post subject: Pict 34 to dual Kadrons? |
|
|
I have a newly rebuilt pict 34 (german with VW markings) that I just can't get to run right. It runs well at first start up and runs well when the engine is fully warmed up (after several miles). But it runs badly in between the two. I am thinking of dumping the pict 34 and going with Kadrons from AJ Simms. Is this a sane thought? I have the SVDA dizzy already... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bucko Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2004 Posts: 2617 Location: Coppell, Texas
|
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
Before you dump money into a set of Kadrons (wise choice to get from AJ Sims; he's the best on those carbs), find the problem with your original setup. Chances are the carb may be alright, and dumping money in a new setup may just cause the same problem, and you'd be out more bucks. Read this link to see if you adjusted the carb according to proper proceedure:
http://www.vw-resource.com/34pict3.html#carb
Did you check the rubber boots on the intake for leaks? Any vacuum leaks? Is the timing correct? Are you using a vacuum advance dizzy, or a 009 dizzy? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
markie61 Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2005 Posts: 583 Location: Northern Virginia
|
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
Have you checked:
Choke pull off too soon? Not soon enough?
Fuel supply lines clean and clear? Fuel tank screen? Fuel line filters?
Manifold heat risers unplugged?
Still have your air cleaner/intake preheater stuff intact?
Do you still have an engine/fan shroud thermostat and is it functioning?
That being said, I have dual Weber IDFs on my new 1914 engine along with a 009 and it runs great, but still requires warmup (no chokes, no engine thermostat, no manifold heat risers, no intake preheat). You might be missing this stuff on a new dual carb setup.
Mark _________________ Whut is that-there Thang!?
------------------------------
Chicks dig my Thing - so what if it's little and yellow...!? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
andk5591 Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 16754 Location: State College, PA
|
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
In all seriousness, your VW needs to warm up a bit and it will be even worse with Kads unless you get chokes. When I was running a 34 on a stock 1600, it always was a little funky the first couple miles. Old VWs are not the same as a new fuel injected car - you can't get in it, hit the key and go. But then, thats part of the "character" of the car. _________________ D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
fisheye Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2005 Posts: 101 Location: Boca Raton, FL
|
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think the choke is opening to soon. It opens within 10 - 15 seconds of starting the car (Summer time weather). Is this adjustable? It is a new choke.
Fuel supply lines are clean. Again it runs pretty good after being 100% warmed up.
Mainfold risers are connected to the exhaust but could be plugged - not visible.
Air intake preheater is not intact.
Not sure what the fan shroud thermostat is. I do have a strange accordian looking thin hanging uner the passenger side of the motor. It is about 2 inches tall. Is that it?
This carb is a replacement of a Bocar that had problems. It is a newly rebuilt VW carb from Chard's Carbs. I have contacted them but have no solution yet..
I appreciate all of your feedback on this topic!! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
fisheye Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2005 Posts: 101 Location: Boca Raton, FL
|
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
By the way - timing is right, new points, and the carb has been adjusted properly. I had a Classic VW shop do it for me to double check my tuning attempt. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
markie61 Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2005 Posts: 583 Location: Northern Virginia
|
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
fisheye wrote: |
I think the choke is opening to soon. It opens within 10 - 15 seconds of starting the car (Summer time weather). Is this adjustable? It is a new choke. |
There is a minor amount of adjustment, but 10-15 seconds sounds about right.
Quote: |
Fuel supply lines are clean. Again it runs pretty good after being 100% warmed up. |
Good - I had so much crud in everyline that just replacing filters did not help until I replaced ALL the lines.
Quote: |
Mainfold risers are connected to the exhaust but could be plugged - not visible. |
This provides warmth to heat up the carb, manifold, and fuel supply. If it is plugged, it takes longer for the engine to warm up.
Quote: |
Air intake preheater is not intact. |
This provides warm air for the fuel air mixture. Without it, engine takes longer to warm up.
Quote: |
Not sure what the fan shroud thermostat is. I do have a strange accordian looking thin hanging uner the passenger side of the motor. It is about 2 inches tall. Is that it? |
Yep - that's it. It attaches via an arm to "shutters" that block off the cooling air until the engine warms up. If the linkage is disconnected or the shutters missing or blocked open, the engine will take longer to warm up.
As I said earlier, the dual carb systems I looked at eliminate the chokes, manifold preheat, and air intake preheat and, therefore, make the engine slower to warm up to max efficiency. The German engineers added all the stuff mentioned above for a purpose - to help the engine warm up faster. Anything missing will simply require a little patience during the first few moments of running
Good luck!
Mark _________________ Whut is that-there Thang!?
------------------------------
Chicks dig my Thing - so what if it's little and yellow...!? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
fisheye Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2005 Posts: 101 Location: Boca Raton, FL
|
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So the bottom line is that I should not expect any smoother operation from dual kadrons? This constant stalling out during acceleration during warm up is getting very old - not to mention a little dangerous. I suppose it is partially my own fault for buying a rebuilt carb... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
ztnoo Samba Member
Joined: March 23, 2005 Posts: 801 Location: Indiana
|
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
fisheye:
Quote: |
Not sure what the fan shroud thermostat is. I do have a strange accordian looking thin hanging uner the passenger side of the motor. It is about 2 inches tall. Is that it?
|
markie61:
Quote: |
Yep - that's it. It attaches via an arm to "shutters" that block off the cooling air until the engine warms up. If the linkage is disconnected or the shutters missing or blocked open, the engine will take longer to warm up.
As I said earlier, the dual carb systems I looked at eliminate the chokes, manifold preheat, and air intake preheat and, therefore, make the engine slower to warm up to max efficiency. The German engineers added all the stuff mentioned above for a purpose - to help the engine warm up faster. Anything missing will simply require a little patience during the first few moments of running |
I would suggest a complete inspection of the bellows thermostat, the linkage rod, and the flappers in the fan shroud.
The bellows thermostat is (was) manufactured in a vacuum environment with an inert gas inside. The gas, when heated causes the bellows to expand, and with the linkage rod which is attached to the upper end, causes it to push the flappers open for full cooling to the cylinder heads.
The bellows stat was designed to be "fail safe"...meaning when it looses its vacuum and returns to normal atmospheric pressure, it will expand, causing the flappers to open fully, thus prolonging warm up....but saving the engine from frying in its own generated heat.
My best guess is maybe your bellows is shot......or for whatever reason, your flappers...that includes the pivots going through the shroud and the linkage, which also has a hefty return spring on the front of the shroud (firewall side), is hung up, or maybe rusted OPEN.
These things would increase warm up time.
For more info on VW bellows thermostats see:
Thermostat testing....ooppps!
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=165709&highlight=thermostats
"Thermostats explained"
http://www.ratwell.com/technical/Thermostats.htm
btw, if you discover you need a new stat, better get it in gear, muy pronto.
Your choice is to give a used one a try, or buy one of the few remaining NOS bellows stats left in the USA. Only 45 left.
See: http://www.evwparts.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Scr...lingSystem
or
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=284376
Take a good look at the operation of the bellows stat, the linkage, and the flappers during warm up. That might give you a good clue to the problems you are experiencing.
Regards,
ztnoo |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bucko Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2004 Posts: 2617 Location: Coppell, Texas
|
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
How sure are you that the mechanic adjusted the carb correctly? I've read countless topics here that a mechanic performed work, only to find out that it was not.
Not trying to say your mechanic did not do the adjustments right, but the poor warmup/stalling is one indication of an incorrect setup on these carbs. They are finicky to adjust right. The slight abount of air and slow speed adjustments are crucial. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
fisheye Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2005 Posts: 101 Location: Boca Raton, FL
|
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
You could be right about the mechanic not adjusting correctly. I assumed it was right because these guys have been doing only VW for over 30 years.. I think I will check it again myself... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bucko Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2004 Posts: 2617 Location: Coppell, Texas
|
Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
"You could be right about the mechanic not adjusting correctly. I assumed it was right because these guys have been doing only VW for over 30 years.. I think I will check it again myself..."
Woops, it sounds like he may be doing it right then! Won't hurt to check though. What does your mechanic say about your condition?
What part of Boca do you live at? I used to live out on 441 in the Hidden Lakes at Boca Chase (about 12 years ago). |
|
Back to top |
|
|
fisheye Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2005 Posts: 101 Location: Boca Raton, FL
|
Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
I am in East Boca near Palmetto Park Rd.. That is funny, I used to live in Orlando - left about 17 years ago.
Last edited by fisheye on Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Thingggg Samba Member
Joined: June 30, 2004 Posts: 353
|
Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Consider Megasquirt EFI, (if you can do it), before changing to different carbs. You can also use it for ignition someday. Put you money in somthing modern. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
fisheye Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2005 Posts: 101 Location: Boca Raton, FL
|
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I just checked my timing with my light, vacuum disconnected and plugged. My light shows 8 degree to the left of the TDC mark at idel and 20 to the right of the TDC mark at high revs. This sounds way off to me. Can I get a sanity check here? Shouldn't it be 7.5 to the right of TDC at idle and about 28-30 to the right at high rpm's? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bucko Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2004 Posts: 2617 Location: Coppell, Texas
|
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
What engine do you have? Assuming it's a 1600 with your dual port, it should be the following:
1300/1500/1600 engines with single vacuum distributor - 7.5BTDC. This is set static - engine off (or at idle with a timing light and the vacuum line disconnected).
1300/1500/1600 engines using the double vacuum distributor - 5ATDC. This must be set using a timing light, with the engine idling and the vacuum lines connected so the retard line can pull in the 5ADTC (After TDC). |
|
Back to top |
|
|
fisheye Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2005 Posts: 101 Location: Boca Raton, FL
|
Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
it is a 1600 DP. So then I guess it is timed correctly then.
Maybe it is my Dizzy. I just noticed that the number on the side does not end with 034. Mine ends with a 205. Maybe it is not advancing enough for my motor/carb? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bucko Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2004 Posts: 2617 Location: Coppell, Texas
|
Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
You should check the advance mechanism. The quick way is to remove the vacuum tube from the carb and apply vacuum (if you don't have a vacuum pump, you can suck on the line). Observe the plate in the dizzy (cap and rotor removed). The plate the points are mounted to should move smoothly as you apply vacuum.
Another problem with older distributors are the shafts. They wear over the years and become sloppy. Do you have access to another distributor to try? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
fisheye Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2005 Posts: 101 Location: Boca Raton, FL
|
Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
I do have another dizzy but it is an 009 - no vacuum advance. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
bucko Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2004 Posts: 2617 Location: Coppell, Texas
|
Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The 009 can be even more difficult to dial in. Some love them, some hate the intermidiate lag the 009 can cause.
If it were me, I'd try another vacuum dizzy. If you'd like, pmail me; I'm pretty sure I have an extra one in a box you can try out. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|